Moose on the loose

[motox tech]

looks like im gonna have to replace the IP on my 94. Was seriously considering looking into the moose. Went through several old threads to research the process so I didnt have to hound Mel for all the perticulars. After reading these threads I came to the conclusion that maybe the moose is not the pump for me. The reason is not becouse im against the upgrade or have any reason to distrust the process. Im at about 9000 feet and from what Ive gathered from old posts is that the moose is to Bad Ass for my application. I dont know If maybe I misunderstood, but more fuel is probly not what im searchin for. I know that Air is a must here and more fuel is only gonna cause more soot on my trailer Let me know your thoughts about this cause maybe i read into it wrong!! Im not to good at comprehension some times, think I might be A.D.D

 

[FordGuy100]

You might be right. I can tell the difference of elevation for sure. When I go skiing, going over the pass, (5400', so not even close to your elevation). Down low I couldnt get to 1100* on my power, even where I live at 1600'. At pass levels, I could hit 1200* pretty easy (accelerating from 60-80mph). That was with a stock pump not even turned up all the way. So if you threw a moose pump on that thing, I could see your EGT's getting hot way fast. An intercooler would help but I think hauling you would have problems with EGT's.

 

[reklund]

You won't be able to use all the fuel the Moose Pump will put out at that altitude. I live at 5200', and am not sure I could use it all. At 9k elevation, you'll roll coal all over your trailer, unless you have a huge turbo cramming air in the engine to match all that fuel.

If 90% of your time is spent around that altitude, I'd get a stock reman "baby moose" pump from Mel and run that.

Ryan

 

[FordGuy100]

You won't be able to use all the fuel the Moose Pump will put out at that altitude. I live at 5200', and am not sure I could use it all. At 9k elevation, you'll roll coal all over your trailer, unless you have a huge turbo cramming air in the engine to match all that fuel.

If 90% of your time is spent around that altitude, I'd get a stock reman "baby moose" pump from Mel and run that.

Ryan

Thats what I was thinking. Unless you can effectivly get 12+psi of cold dense air (more so than a stock turbo and intercooler could provide)...then its probalby not a good idea. Though the advance curve could help out a lot for EGT's.

 

[motox tech]

Ive got a near new pump just collectin dust in my secret stash. You guys think its worth havin it baby moosed or should I just run it. Its the non turbo pump which is the reason I was hesitant on putting it on in the first place, but now im thinkin it may be a benifit.

 

[funnyman06]

Well if nothing else Mel could go through it and work the timing better for your app. Plus when its done you will know you have a solid pump and that you are getting everything you could get out of your truck

 

[Agnem]

Your self eval is probably accurate. More air is a real necessity for a Moose Pump. I don't know if you could compensate with dual turbo's at that altitude or not.

 

[motox tech]

Thanks for the conformation Mel. Now you really got my wheels turnin, Twin turbo? I have contemplated that but figured since my engine is now a 92 (after swap) I wasnt sure if It could handle that much boost! Any thoughts or suggestions? Id be willing to try if I sounded feasable. GOD BLESS
Newly

 

[FordGuy100]

With head studs and new head gaskets 15psi is about max. If you took the motor out, shaved the pistons down to lower compression a little bit, head studs and head gaskets then you could pump up the boost a little more.

It makes you wonder if you can run more boost at higher elevation vs. low elevations because the air is less dense with less O2.

 

[funnyman06]

I will answer that, haha. Yes you can run higher boost at higher elevation. If we break it down to the basic all boost is is pressure over atmospheric, correct. at 9000 feet there is less air, the air is less dense. So it might take him 5 PSI to get the same amount of pressure in his engine as our NA trucks have at sea level. The difference is, he has to work harder to get it.

Here is an example, its basic but you should get the point. Say i am at sea level with my truck. average pressure on earth at sea level is about 14 PSI. My friend is at 10,000 feet and somehow on this planet his average pressure is half, so 7 PSI. He would have to run 7 PSI of boost just to get to the same place i am at sea level O2 wise and would have the exact same amount of pressure in his engine as i do. So if i was running say 14 lbs of boost, he would have to run 21 lbs, and theoretically he should have no less stress in his engine than i do. (Then again our turbos just make heat after like 14 psi
so his charge would be soo hot he probably would not gain anything)

This is overly basic and it is probably not correct 100% but should give you a basic over view. This is partly why having a turbo that is able to push out a wide range of boost is very important because at higher elevations you need more boost to get the same about of air.

 

[FordGuy100]

Ok now you got me thinking. Average atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7psi. At 9000' the avearge atmospheric pressure is 10.46psi. So what your saying is basically true. He would need to run 4.24psi of boost to compensate to sea level atmospheric pressure.

But this brings up another question. Does a standard boost gauge meassure pressure above 14.7psi? Like when the pressure inside the engine is 15.7psi the gauge will read 1psi of boost. But if your at 9000' elevation and the atmospheric pressure is 10.46psi, will the gauge read 1psi of boost when the pressure in the engine reaches 11.46 psi, or will it read 1psi of boost when it reaches 15.7psi like it would at sea level?

 

[funnyman06]

Well now, that is a good question... I think all its looking for is the difference, think of like a balloon, all your doing is creating a difference of pressure. boost gauge is just measuring the difference.

 

[motox tech]

keep it comming this is getting entertaining and informative all at the same time!! hurting my small brain but im tryin to keep up.

 

[FordGuy100]

Copy and paste on boost gauges

"Well pretty simply a boost gauge displays the pressure in psi or bar (kg/cm2) at the intake manifold. Some read absolute pressure (relative to a perfect vacuum) and others read gauge pressure (relative to ambient atmospheric pressure).""More so most boost gauges (all mechanical I know of and most electronic) all operate off gauge pressure anyway."

So it seems like most will read off of the ambient atmospheric pressure, the pressure that your truck is at at whatever elevation you are. So if you are at 9000' and 10.46psi atmospheric pressure, than 11.46psi in the engine would read as 1psi of boost. It seems that at that elevation, you would need 4.24psi of boost to compensate to sea level conditions.

Is it easier for a turbo to boost as lower atmospheric pressure? Ie, will it super heat air at the same pressure. Like if a stock turbo at sea level produces super heated air at 10psi, or 24.7psi atmospheric pressure. Will that same turbo at higher elevations produce super heated air at 20.46psi (10.46psi+10psi), or will it create super heated air at the same pressure at sea level of 24.7psi.

 

[funnyman06]

Hahaha, well ask more questions and we will see if we can break it all down, haha. The biggest issues i see with more boost is being able to get it efficiently, thats where i think twins come in. We are not talking about huge numbers, but we really do need to be able to get good cool boost from really 2 PSI all the way up to 20 maybe even 25 PSI. If you can keep the charge cool and the heads on i think you would be good to go.

Lets do a little math why dont we...

14.7psi is the average at sea level.
10.46psi is at 9000 feet.

4.24 psi difference

That means there is almost 30% less air at 9000 feet then sea level. The question i have would be, does that mean he needs 30% more boost than people at sea level to get the same power level. hmmm time for more math.

Ill be back i need to look at my Chem stuff about STP and comparing volumes of gas. Its been a couple years since ive done this...