'94 E-350 7.3L IDI cold start problems HELP!

[martuseich]

I know this is a little long, but I and the mechanic are stumped, I need some help figuring this out, and I NEED my work vehicle, so I'm giving you the entire rundown.

I own a locksmith shop & bought an ambulance to use as a service vehicle. Having worked as a mechanic years ago, I have a basic understanding of the workings of a diesel, though far from thoroughly knowledgable. I have a '94 E-350 7.3L IDI 150,000 miles or so, starts great whether or not block heater has been plugged in unless it's been sitting more than a day. If I don't go out & start it & run for 5 minutes or so each day, I have a real difficult time starting it.

I'll let it sit over the weekend without starting it, all the while block heater plugged in & heating just fine. When I go to start it Monday morning w/ warm engine (from block heater), I crank & crank, but no start.

It had this same problem several months ago. My mechanic suggested I hold the accelerator to the floor & crank for up to 30 seconds at a time & see if it starts. If not let it sit for 15-30 minutes to give starter time to cool. Started next few days within 2 tries, so I took it in & my mechanic found a pinhole leak @ the fuel heater & replaced it. We surmised pinhole leak was allowing gravity to slowly draw the fuel back down into the tank over time & constant cranking @ full throttle would allow mechanical fuel pump to pull fuel back up after several seconds. He replaced the heater assembly and 4 glow plugs (used Autolite plugs) & it started fine. About 4 months later, I was having start problems again & glow plug lamp lit for just a few secs, then started blinking. Time to replace more bad glow plugs.

Frustrated w/ the start problems & not knowing when GP controller had last been replaced (I bought the van @ 98K miles), I decided to make sure I was covering all the bases & hopefully saving further future hassle. I went to the Ford dealer & bought new Motorcraft gp controller & all new Motorcraft glow plugs (Motorcraft Wrapper, but Beru label on the plugs). I changed them all out, careful to use a vacuum cleaner at each glow plug hole before and as I was removing the old plugs so as not to get any trash in the cylinders. Put it all back together & glow plug controller lamp lit for approx. 30 secs & she fired up like a champ. Hallelujah! Now I'm good to go, right?

3 weeks later, 1 battery gave it up, so I went to Interstate & replaced all 3 batteries (950 CCA each = 2850 total, turns over quickly). That did it, started like a champ once more. No problems for the next 2 months.

Now I'm having same problem as before when fuel heater had pinhole leak. I didn't check the glow plugs as GP controller lamp still stays on for 30 secs or so and van starts fine as long as it hasn't been sitting for more than about 36 hours. Hot/warm starts are no problem either. In fact when it's warm & has been running in the last 24-36 hours it starts immediately on cranking as quickly as any gas vehicle.

If it's been sitting for more than a day though, I have to crank & crank while holding the accelerator to the floor, until it eventually starts.

I've also checked the 200 amp Leece-Neville alternator & it's charging just fine & those 950 CCA batteries all test @ 1110 - 1120 CCA. Batteries & charging system are no problem.

My mechanic is the best diagnostic guy in all of the Richmond, VA metro area....on gasoline vehicles. Diesels are not his specialty, but he does pretty well overall & I trust him. He just hasn't serviced enough diesels on a regular basis to have attained the troubleshooting & diagnostic prowess he has with gas engines. I'd rather not take it elsewhere unless I have no other option. Most diesel shops see you coming & bust you wide open (especially when they see the ambulance). The few I've tried have been less than what I would consider professional & leave me with a less than trustworthy impression.

I'm not sure these have anything to do with my problem, but I'll mention them:

1. In a hurry, 1,000 miles overdue on my oil change already, no time in sight to do it myself, I stopped at Walmart next door to the job I was on to have it done. I know, I know, Walmart is typically a bunch of hacks, but I talked to the 2 "mechanics / oil change fellas" before I let them do the job. These guys were mid to late 30's, not young punks and knew my engine took 10-11 quarts of Rotella 15W40, so I felt like they were capable enough. I wasn't excited about the Fram filter but it'll work. I checked the oil before I left, level was good, no milky color (as if coolant were getting in). After 1,000 miles now, level is still good & oil looks fine.

2. About 3 years ago, I installed a toggle switch on the console to break the power to the coil of the GP relay. I leave it on most all the time. I do turn it off for hot starts only.

Any tips / pointers etc would be greatly appreciated.

Brad

 

[franklin2]

Replace the o-rings and return lines at the injectors. If the short rubber lines still have grey paint on them, then they are original and way overdue for replacement, along with the o-rings. The o-rings leak air and cause the same problem as your pinhole leak you found before.

 

[martuseich]

I forgot to note that when the fuel heater assy & 1st set of glow plugs were replaced, injector o-rings & return lines were also replaced. Mechanic says plenty of thick gray exhaust while trying to start AND he has replaced the mechanical fuel pump while he was extracting 2 snapped off bolts of the 3 that hold on the alternator bracket. He also put electric fuel pump in line temporarily between tank & engine to test & make sure fuel supply / pressure isn't the issue. It seems to be getting fuel.

Any ideas? Anybody?

 

[nappy nate]

is the switch that you installed on the GP system carrying the entire load for GP's power? Does it get hot when th Gp's are on. Maybe its restricting the amount of power getting to the controller. Also check the wires going to the glow plug controller for signs of heat and fatigue, fix.
Lets face it your symptoms sound a lot like return lines leaking, having the electric fuel pump hooked up should lead you to a leak where the air was getting in and now fuel will come out with the pump on.
WHy did you only replace 4 GP's the first time around? Because of that I may not trust your 'mechanic" and want to see pictures of the return lines, are they bone dry?
nate

 

[franklin2]

Mechanic says plenty of thick gray exhaust while trying to start

If you are getting stinky diesel smelling exhaust, and it won't start, then you are not generating enough heat to burn the fuel. The heat is generated externally by the glowplugs or the block heater, and internally by compressing the air in the cylinder.

If the fuel is not lighting off, and your glowplugs and block heater are working, then you must not have enough compression generated in the engine to start combustion. I see that being caused by to slow a cranking speed, or the engine is wore out and the compresssion needs to be checked.

I believe I would take it to someone else and see what they say about it.

 

[franklin2]

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[GOOSE]

Ask your mechanic to do a compression test to eliminate poor motor condition as your culprit. I believe you should be above the 400psi mark. Compression tester screws into GP location.

 

[martuseich]

Nate,

switch to turn GP relay on/off is tied into glow plug relay activation / coil circuit (as posted in 1st post). It just cuts the power to the coil not allowing the coil to pull in & connect the high amperage contacts that feed the power to the glow plugs.

 

[gatorman21218]

Whats the name of your guy in richmond? im in ashland and just curious

 

[gatorman21218]

Also when you say 30 seconds for the WTS light to stay on, I think thats a tad long. Mine only stays on for 12 seconds on cold mornings before it starts clicking off. Check all the connections as one may have corrosion and is causing resistance. IIRC the relay draws 200 amps and might not be getting enough current. Check your battery cables too along with any other wires. Also what about the bullet connector the goes on the top of the plug? Also is the engine ground a good connection? glad to have another central va idier on here

 

[martuseich]

Mechanic says when GP controller is on, he's got approx. 10.5 volts on input side of the accordian like metal bar on the controller & 6 volts on the outgoing side. Does this sound right? Is that bent metal tab / bar on the GP controller some type of resistor? What should the voltage be @ the plugs?

He's still checking leak possibilities & will do a compression check. He says he thinks we might have a leak somewhere in the injector pump.

Art isn't the kind of guy to just throw parts at things & he doesn't put bandaids on bandaids & call that fixed. This guy oils every wheel stud, then hand torques EVERY wheel nut on every car that goes in & out of his shop, after he verifies what the factory torque spec is. He insists on diagnosing the true problem, NOT throwing parts at it until it works. I worked for this guy, so I know his penchant for excellence. He does excellent or he just won't do it. Period! He's just not a diesel guy.

If he really thinks it will need an injector pump, am I better off to order a new one or have a local rebuilder rebuild what I have? If new / refurb is the better way to go, where should I buy to get the best value? I don't want "cheap", just the best price for the best quality. Cheap now typically means at least as much and likely more later on top of the fact that the vehicle will be down, so I definitely want to go quality.




Here's a post from another forum. Does this sound like a valid possibility to you guys?

from kirkt @ dieseldoctor.com:

"""I had the same problem on a 6.9 IDI and went though all the steps except the glow plugs. The one I had the problem with wasn't a glow plug problem. It would start after sitting for 8 to 12 hours just fine, but let it set for a week....Forget it. I ended up putting an electric pump on as you did. That seemed to help, as the fuel would eventually prime by just turning on the key. What I ended up finding is a lot of air bubbles on the return line from the injectors, indication of an an air leak somewhere in the system. It ended up being in the pickup tube in the tank towards the top, plus another somewhere between the lift pump and the engine allowing a back-flow. On a full tank, it wouldn't have the problem. Suggestion: Let the electric pump run for a while before cranking. The problem with this is, the glow plug timer. You will have to let it do it's thing while you let the pump do it's thing, and then turn everything off for a minute, then go for it. It's a pain in the butt, although unless you want to tackle that tank, (bigger pain in the butt), it's the only way."""


Electric pump & cycling the key to fire GPs again is a rig. I will have it fixed properly so long as it's feasible. Thanks for your help & look forward to your replies.

Brad

 

[martuseich]

Whats the name of your guy in richmond?

Art's Automotive. Recently moved from his shop on Staples Mill to Athens Rd, behind the Waffle House near the corner of Brook & Parham, right around the corner from Red Jenkins'.

Funny Gatorman / Jimbob, 'cause my lock shop is right there in the Hanover Air Park (Ashland)

 

[gatorman21218]

Yeah im not too far from the air park. I live right in the middle of town by the Hardees there. As for getting a new Inj pump, go ahead and get a moose pump from Mel (Agnem) although you may want to fix/ find the problem first. If there is a leak somewhere you probably wont be getting that white cloud when you crank it. Sorry i dont know much about the IP or related problems.

 

[GOOSE]

I have a sump problem in my front tank. Usually when under a 1/4 tank, it will lose its prime when sitting. I am certain this isn't good for the ip pump. The hardest part of dropping tanks for me is reconnecting the short fuel lines while holding tank half way up with a jack that wants to wheel its way to somewhere else. Seems like a reasonable possibility to eliminate.

 

[GOOSE]

http://www.intellidog.com/dieselmann/idi.htm

Try reading above web site. Good Knowledge to brush up on. You may want to copy it for your mechanic also. I am sure he has a vested interest in fixing this problem also.