starter needed, which type?

[Black dawg]

I havent seen the denso starters be sensitive to voltage, but it seems like any time the batterys get low, it doesnt take much to burn up a mitsu.

When I did my testing, at same temperatures and battery voltage, both starters were very close to 400 amp draw. Like within 10 amps of each other.

I have my local napa working on that part number, hopefully they can come up with something.

Napa online is like a totally different store to them
That second part number did cross, but they are not a normal napa item, and 600 dollars

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Black Dawg, thanks man! I tried getting hold of my own regular NAPA guy, he dives in for the paper catalogs pretty much the moment he sees me walking thru the door, but as luck would have it he's off work today and tomorrow for whatever reason. The lady at this Napa now was looking thru their own system, whatever it was, and it was coming up empty. I explained to her what I was seeing on my end, and she said she doesn't question its existence, it's just a matter of finding a way to locate it on her end. I tried a bunch of medium-duty applications by International, heck for anything IDI-powered be it 6.9 or 7.3 they don't even list a starter available, any starter that is!

Here's what we're working with, took the dead starter apart and it doesn't look too bad I think. Lots of black dust came out, but no metal or other pieces. Bearings both spin nice and smooth, brushes all stick out over 1/8" out of their holders and retract to under 1/16" when rotor is back in place, so plenty of life left in them still. Gear reduction spins decent as well, little wear on the nose cone wheel that engages the flywheel. The only issues I was able to locate are #1 the rusty as all heck solenoid and #2 signs of arcing between the brushes holder bracket and the end cap of the motor. Solenoid was a suspect since Towcat mentioned it, and it's likely the culprit indeed. The arcing is what concerns me most, as it's a sign there was poor contact there (this is the current's ground path, for all 400+ amps of it that Black Dawg measured), and there's no real way we could fix that as the aluminum end cap is pitted itself at this point. Which actually brings the question - ho do reman starters get around that? Do they just machine it flat again? Just curious is all...

 

[Black dawg]

So the NAE 17818 is a good napa number, it is just a recently added part number. My napa did some sort of update, and now it is in their system. very cool.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Did your parts man happen to tell you what's the application they have listed for that starter, and how much it would cost thru them? Napaonline still does not list it, and i'd like to have as much info as i can before i call the local lady and grill her again, lol.

 

[Black dawg]

Never did get an app, just gave him the part number. He had to make a call (to where??) to find it and add it to his system.
I just looked it up, and it still isnt on my part of the napa system (prolink).

If you end up getting a napa mitsu, make very sure of the specs, as most of the remans are only 2.5kw mitsu.

 

[Black dawg]

I know you can't get them any more, but I'd take a factory Delco unit over all those others. Mine is 32 years old and still cranking after 120,000 miles.

I have not had a delco on any of my trucks for close to 20 years. I have one laying on the floor here that I have been thinking of trying on my truck. If the juice is there, they do crank fast.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

If it's a Mitsu it will most likely be an AZ one, as with them you don't have to have your receipt on you, just walk into any store nationwide and give them your phone number and a part number and they can find it even if it's been several years - pretty convenient if you need a replacement while away from home.

Advance can kinda do that but only within 2 years, after that you need your receipt, and there is the BS some stores will try to push that you need to exchange the part at the store you bought it from - yes, I will drive halfway across the country with a dead starter just so you a-holes can hopefully hold up your end of the deal, absolutely no problem at all!

NAPA will be the source of the 4kW starter, if they can ever locate it. Gonna give them a try again, see who they can call and what update they can do to find it like Black Dawg's NAPA person did...

 

[typ4]

If you order a 4kw from DB it will be there likely next day.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Good to know! Well let's see what the NAPA has to say first, then we can make an executive decision...

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Does the BD 4kW starter bolt up with 3 bolts like the factory one, or just 2? Picture looks like it has 3 ears but one is blank, so down to 2 bolts only...

Anyways NAPA said $230 for the starter and it has to come out of Cali so $50 shipping, well heck we could have picked one up a few days ago in person, lol. And being a reman there is $80 core charge... So it looks like BD's starter it is, we have arranged for an alternate truck in the mean time so waiting a few days should not be a problem much.

 

[Black dawg]

4kw denso has 2 mounting bolt holes. I have not put the 4kw on an idi, but I have put them on several powerstrokes. The cranking speed is pretty impressive.

On the napa starter core...there is no way to easily get the correct core. In these cases, they tell me just to put the old starter in the box. never had a problem.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

I see on the pic it has a blind ear, wonder if that cone could be drilled out for a 3rd bolt... Yeah we're not going the NAPA route, if it were available locally maybe yes, but if it's getting shipped i see no reason in paying more of the starter itself and shipping on top of that when we can get it from BD for like $70 less for starter and free shipping.

Good thing about it being a new starter is that we get to keep the old one, which appears to be in good shape with just the contactor/solenoid acting up... Fix up and keep as spare it is!

 

[tbrumm]

I see on the pic it has a blind ear, wonder if that cone could be drilled out for a 3rd bolt... Yeah we're not going the NAPA route, if it were available locally maybe yes, but if it's getting shipped i see no reason in paying more of the starter itself and shipping on top of that when we can get it from BD for like $70 less for starter and free shipping.

Good thing about it being a new starter is that we get to keep the old one, which appears to be in good shape with just the contactor/solenoid acting up... Fix up and keep as spare it is!

LCAM thanks for pointing out that the DB starter has only two holes. I too am wondering if that "tab" could simply be drilled out for the third bolt. Or perhaps the 4KW motor is just simply too big to be able to get around it to get the bolt it. Please keep us posted if you decide to try that.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Will do! Now to take things in a bit different direction, what would be considered low voltage? This goes back to Towcat's comment about the NDs being very susceptible to damage if voltage gets too low, there are some voltmeters there that can trigger alarms and/or turn on/off buzzers and such at preset levels. So it won't be hard to build a little safety box for the starter, if voltage drops below a certain number said safety box simply won't complete the starter's trigger circuit. So what would the magic number be? 8V? More? Less?

 

[LCAM-01XA]

LCAM thanks for pointing out that the DB starter has only two holes. I too am wondering if that "tab" could simply be drilled out for the third bolt. Or perhaps the 4KW motor is just simply too big to be able to get around it to get the bolt it. Please keep us posted if you decide to try that.

Got the starter in, and yes, the casting for the gear box is done in such a manner that the ear ends up blind - even if you drill it you can't put a bolt in it. You could drill and tap and use a stud, but then you'll have to drill out the threads in the 1" thick engine-to-transmission adapter plate, and also clearance the transmission bell on the other side so you can actually insert the bolt from back in there... Too much work, not enough benefit to justify it. The starter pilots in the adapter plate opening anyways, all the bolts do is hold it in place - and you will need longer bolts too, as the ND starter has a flange that is thicker than the Mitsu one by about 1/4". Flange-head would work best as the holes in the starter flange are actually 7/16" (bolts are 3/8"), obviously go for Grade-8 if possible.

And what Black Dawg said about cranking speed is true, holy cow that is nothing short of impressive!!!