Gaulded Six ARP Studs

icanfixall

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Boy did I mess up today. I cleaned all the studs like directions said. Then used the ARP moly lube and torqued six studs into my spare motor with a head and gasket in place. I wasn't concerned about cracking an already cracked head. I torqued them up and down 6 times to stretch and set the stud material just like the directions state... But things gaulded. I have no idea why. What I did find was my sockets are not deep enough to clear the top threads on the stud. I rolled the threads on several studs but thats an easy fix with a belt sander too. I just don't know why the nuts grabbed the clean lubed threads. Some I got the nut off but you can see the thread damage so why go cheap. Tomorrow I will be driving the 70 miles to the factory and buy some "extras" just in case something else happens. The wife says "Bad charma out... Bad charma in..... I really thought I was a really nice guy....:dunno cookoo
 

Dirtleg

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I'm thinking you reused the nuts from your old studs correct. I am of the opinion that things like that wear in together and athough they can be reused together I feel they shouldn't be swapped around. I always keep the nuts and studs together on my BMW for this reason. No problems yet.
 

icanfixall

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Nope nope nope.... My motor is still in the truck and all I have is 2 of those nuts from Kens studs.... BTW they are bigger nuts. They require a 5/8 inch socket and the ARP nuts take a 9/16th inch socket. Boths are 12 point heads with a flange... So there....;p Yes... I had thought about reusing the bigger nuts... You know bigger nuts are always better nuts....:D Russ, I really don't know what you mean by checking my nuts. They threaded on very easily without any feeling of a problem. I'm using the ARP moly lube too. They only thing that seem to fit is I didn't use enough moly on the first 6. After that I really goobered them up and no other problems except the damn socket. The studs come thru the nut and hit inside the craftsman socket. It doesn't matter if its a deep or standard socket either. I checked it. So the top threads get ground down just a bit. The gaulded studs have the nut threaded down about half way of the fine threads. There shot. The ones that I was able to unthread shows the threads down deep all fuzzy and the black surface treatment is gone. I will be giving them back to ARP and they can inspect them. Maybe "they" did something wrong when they made them.
 

tradergem

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Maybe different thread profiles?

Sounds to me like you got bit by the old problem of having different thread profiles on the ARP studs than the thread profiles on the Ken's nuts. It is not uncommon for nuts, bolts, studs of the same diameter and thread count from different manufacturers to have a different thread profile. In other words one stud may have a sharp V thread profile while a stud from a different manufacturer may have a Flat Top V Acme type thread profile. And this can cause galling of the threads and if that happens the strength of the stud and nut is very much compromised. I recommend that you call ARP and talk to them about your problem. Good luck. Jim:sorry:
 

BigRigTech

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Sounds like a thread pitch issue, not such a big issue with SAE bolts but it is common with metric bolts. They use 3 or 4 different pitches.
 

icanfixall

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These are both SAE threads top and bottom from ARP. The damaged threads are the 1/2x20 fine threads at the top side of the studs. I used the nuts I bought from ARP about 18 months to 2 years ago. They are the 12 point flanged nuts. I did not reuse my Kens nuts but I really wanted to because they are bigger nuts and still in my motor except the two that broke. They require a 5/8 inch 12 point socket where ARP nuts require a 12 point 9/16 socket. Non of the threads are flat top acme threads. I know the threads on the ARP studs are rolled and not cut into the studs. I believe the Kens studs to be rolled also. They will be tested later.
 

riotwarrior

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Gee man ***** you got a no go again. Sheesh....

When yer at the ARP factory see what they say...take one of the galled studs in for inspection....maybe...just maybe it's the stud not the nut...some small defect unknown until now?

Can you check the cost of a full set of studs nuts and washers while yer there please?

Hope you can find some sort of answer to this from them
 

icanfixall

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Well today four hours spent talking to and driving to and from ARP. The two ingineers I talked with really know their stuff. My larger nuts would have been just fine and... They sell them also but... Around $8.00 each.... Anyway, I gave them all 6 studs with the nuts on them. They gave me 6 nuts, washers & studs.... FREE....;Sweet ... They feel I didn't do anything wrong. Sometimes a small piece of dirt will cause this problem.... These nut to stud thread fit is called A3 or 3A.. I don't remember but its a higher grade than aircraft specs. Its the closest fit on the market. Way above Home depot or grade 8 but I already knew that much. Remember my almost 30 years working on the big steam generators and turbines plus the Pratt & Whitney jet engine peaker units...... We talked about the studs used in top fuel motors and they are 220,000 psi 9/16 so thats not much better than what we have. The only possible way we could use the 9/16 studs is to try it on a 6.9 motor because thats the only block that can handle the stud bore and tapping to 9/16th thread so maybe??? They do have some extrememly high alloy 260 to 270,000 psi studs but they cost around $1500.00 a set... Plus you can't touch them with your bare hands. The sweat will corrode them and cause a stress fracture and break. Not good. My Kens studs looked like maybe they had a corrosion problem at the threads or Nitrogen enbrittlement problem. Even having them tested they wouldn't show what really happened. So I take the responsibility for the corrosion problem and possible breakage. I really don't feel it was anything Kens supplier did wrong. As we were talking they asked about turbos. I told them yes, I boost to 12 lbs and no more... They kinda snickered because some guy had just called about all his psd intake manifold studs broke. They asked why and he didn't know.......:D When asked what kind of boost are you running the said "Oh, around 250 lbs"!!! Turns out he was running 3 turbos inline so thats that on a truck pull. Not a daily driver for sure..... I have ALL the studs, nuts and washers torqued down 6 cycles now and when I install them on my motor that will make it 7 times. They really moved around a bunch just backing them orr 90 degrees and tightening them up again to 100 lbs. Each time they moved a few degrees more till the 5th time so I went one more just for smits and giggles. I had to see what was going on. So figure this out. Six torque and loosening and retorquing times 34.... I'm really sore... My years have caught up to me finally.... I feel like a grunt worker doing all the heavy stuff but I'm working for myself... Can't fire myself but sometimes I sure wish I could....
 

RLDSL

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That's a combined applied torque of about 20,400 ft. pounds for the day :eek: You're going to feel that tomorrow :rotflmao Geting old sucks.
I've got a couple of young strong helpers I pay to help out with the heavy stuff on occasion but I still don't quite trust them with things like engine bolts yet. My 11 year old does a better job with a torque wrench ( he's probably been using one longer ).

That all sounds like way too much work . that fixes it for me, I'm sticking with stock head bolts . They'd be calling 911 for me somewhere between the 3rd and 5th torque cycle :rotflmao
 

BigRigTech

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Do a head on a 60 series Detroit some time - 38 headbolts at 220ftlbs....My IR titanium gun will run the main bolts up to the 270ftlb spec but the head bolts stretch so much that you have to go around 2-3 times with the torque wrench to "achieve" a click on all of them.....Pure sweatin' pig work on a hot summers day...LOL
 

RLDSL

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I know what you mean. I used to play with the big Cats , but that was back when I was a strapping young lad and it didn't bother me. These days, I don't think there's a part on one of those beasts I could lift. Heck, these little foreign diesels I like to play with so much can really fake you out with the torque to yield head bolts the low torque figures don't tell you much once you set down on an MLS gasket, they quit squeezing at the final bolt torque, then on the angle torque, you're just bending metal and it's making all kinds of interesting noises. You just squint and wait for something to break. You'd be amazed at the workout one of those little stinkers can give you ( 332 ft lbs for a crank bolt on a 2.4L engine, sheesh , that with locktite, you should see what it's like getting those things off). Most of the things on my truck actually come apart and go together easier, they're just heavier and harder to get to.
 

icanfixall

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Well... I got the motor out early this morning. Removed the heads and surprizingly easy getting out the two broken stud threads. Even though they were about one inch deep in the blockI was able to start them turning out. As they got near the top I used a small angle battery powered grinder with about a 1/16th ball bit . I tried to cut a slot for a screwdriver but I found that if the burr was on the correct side of the broken stud it would drive it up and out. Then a magnit and its done. I pulled all the freeze plugs. Some were sure loose. I drilled a 5/16 holes in the them and tapped them to 3/8. Made a slide hammer and out they popped. A little Permatex avaition sealant on the block and plugs, then drive them in with a driver I made up and finished off with a 1 1/4 inch socket.... Rednecked it was but its done. I cleaned everything and reinstalled the heads with Felpro head gaskets. The studs went in fine and I did the first pass at 65 lbs of torque. The Craftsman torque wrench was calibrated about 18 months ago so I felt good using it. My wife worked for Sears back in the early 70s so it cost her $31.51 with the employee discount I really like it but.... When I tried to adjust it to 85 lbs it felt funny. Then I saw the problem.....-cuss The ring that has the number 1 thru 0 just spins around...... Damn it anyway. So off I go to get another one free from Sears.... Nope.... They have a 1 year warranty on torque wrenches. I argue this. I told this "kid" I've had this tool longer than he has been on the earth. And just maybe if he was alive when I bought it he might have been still shitten yellow...... Anyway I told them I wanted a new one and could prove when I bought it. I still had the sales reciete in my box. It was dated 1972. "Oh,, says the punk". They did have lifetime warrantys back then. So I take one look at what they say is the replacement tool.... What a piece o crap. Plastic and no way as good as what I have. So I paid $69.00 for a piece-o-crap to get my job done. No to try and fix my good old trusty wrench... Kinda figures that something would go wrong and keep me from finishing my work. Some of you guys know me from my posts. I have learned not to say what next because sure enough something is fixen to happen and it will only happen to me. Nobody has my lack of luck thats for sure....:dunno
 
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