I know most people can't read diagrams. But up in post #4, the controller is the blue box in the middle, the line with the "P" is the purple wire leading from the controller to the left to the glowplug relay. That is the only connection from the controller to the relay. Get rid of the purple wire and the controller can't do anything except maybe turn the dash light on, which would mean nothing.
6.9 Glow Plug System problems
- Thread starter Baxter
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Old Goat
Full Access Member
We have freakin Snow. was suppose to get 1 - 3", and ended up with 13". been shoveling for around 3hrs. At least we are not in calif,. They were complaining about the drought and empty reservours, now complaining they have too much water. Just can not please some people.
Goat
BeastMaster
Full Access Member
Xolatem woke me up to an old post I left above about failing glow plugs.
This is an update, posted over 1 1/2 years later. I have had absolutely no further issues after the fix which used the relay Wes recommended.
I also saw the video Black Dawg posted about deliberately seeing how long a glow plugs will burn without burning out.
One thing I feel I need to add is my experience included having the engine running in an active driving scenario with the alternator trying it's damnedest to maintain a 14V or so terminal voltage on the battery, which had a 200+ amp load on it ... The stuck ON glow plugs.
I suppose this is what had not only taken out my battery, but also my alternator as well. My glow plugs were probably already history by then.
As long as that 130A alternator, and the new battery put out what they could to maintain 14 volts float on the battery rail, the glow plugs probably blew open pretty fast. When I measured, that was about 200A at 10-11 volts, the terminal voltage of the battery loaded to 200A, and it must have cooked my alternator alive once my engine caught and I began driving and it was commanded by the voltage regulator to maintain 14 volts on the battery rail.
This is my explanation of why I experienced total failure within minutes.
I post this posthumously in the hopes someone with a similar situation scanning old posts ( just as I do ) will find my experience helpful. By golly, this was a terribly expensive lesson for me. You guys have already helped me so much with understanding my E4OD transmission it ain't funny. That thing has been threatening to make my dream machine into a Hangar Queen...and it's ALL been electrical problems...PSOM, Tach Sensor, and FIPL, and bad connections...one after another....oh well, that's what the PO was experiencing too...if he hadn't been experiencing this, he wouldn't have sold it to me as cheap as he did.
This is an update, posted over 1 1/2 years later. I have had absolutely no further issues after the fix which used the relay Wes recommended.
I also saw the video Black Dawg posted about deliberately seeing how long a glow plugs will burn without burning out.
One thing I feel I need to add is my experience included having the engine running in an active driving scenario with the alternator trying it's damnedest to maintain a 14V or so terminal voltage on the battery, which had a 200+ amp load on it ... The stuck ON glow plugs.
I suppose this is what had not only taken out my battery, but also my alternator as well. My glow plugs were probably already history by then.
As long as that 130A alternator, and the new battery put out what they could to maintain 14 volts float on the battery rail, the glow plugs probably blew open pretty fast. When I measured, that was about 200A at 10-11 volts, the terminal voltage of the battery loaded to 200A, and it must have cooked my alternator alive once my engine caught and I began driving and it was commanded by the voltage regulator to maintain 14 volts on the battery rail.
This is my explanation of why I experienced total failure within minutes.
I post this posthumously in the hopes someone with a similar situation scanning old posts ( just as I do ) will find my experience helpful. By golly, this was a terribly expensive lesson for me. You guys have already helped me so much with understanding my E4OD transmission it ain't funny. That thing has been threatening to make my dream machine into a Hangar Queen...and it's ALL been electrical problems...PSOM, Tach Sensor, and FIPL, and bad connections...one after another....oh well, that's what the PO was experiencing too...if he hadn't been experiencing this, he wouldn't have sold it to me as cheap as he did.
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IDIBRONCO
IDIBRONCO
One more thing I'd like to add here. Up front disclaimer: I have absolutely no idea if this is true or not, but I'll leave it as a possibility. I was told that by having the glow plugs cycle while the engine is running causes them to burn out faster. The idea is that the heat from the firing cylinders puts more heat into the glow plugs which causes them to overheat and burn out faster. "IF" (emphasis on the word if) this is true, it may also help to explain why your glow plugs burned out so quickly when the controller stuck on while the engine was running. The guy who told me that was no mechanic so I'll say again that it's a possibility until proven not to be.
For what it's worth, I had the RV for almost 5 years and I never touched the glow plugs.
Prior to the solid state controller dying (off) after a few years, it tended to cycle them with the engine running a time or two. After the controller died, I put a $5 momentary switch instead of replacing the $100 controller. And the way I wired it, I could fire the plugs before turning the key. It kept a little load off of the batteries, preventing the Holley red fuel pump from running while GPs were lit up.
BeastMaster
Full Access Member
IDIBRONCO:
Your observation rings true with me too. All that electrical energy goes to heat. It wouldn't surprise me to see precup temps over 400 degrees F during engine run, then dumping 14 volts at 25 amps ( over 300 watts ) into the plugs... can't say that's doing anyone any favors.
On top of that, the mechanical "work hardening" from additional thermal cycling just makes things worse.
I get the strong idea an educated human brain, knowing the physics behind glow plug operation , will make far optimal usage of them.
Cubey:
I think the biggest benefit you got by taking manual control over your GP is that you get to put ALL of the current available from your batteries into your starter motor during crank time, as you take advantage of the thermal inertia of the GP.
I experienced that if I dedicated the battery to the GP first, powering them seemed to warm the battery up a bit, so it could crank the engine a bit faster, and the whole trick is to compress fast enough to get to flash point.
Once the engine catches, then it's back to glow plugs a bit if it's really cold and the cups are still cold. Almost like goosing a choke. But as IDIBRONCO stated, engaging GP on a hot engine is bad news...and you nipped that in the bud.
Eventually, I think, piece by piece, I am going to end up replacing every bit of "high tech" on my old 1994 E-350 IDI with toggle switches. Next on my list is the E4OD transmission controller, which I want to replace with four toggle switches ( SS1, SS2, Torque Converter Lock, and Coast Clutch ) and a rheostat ( Line Pressure ). I can wire the switches in such a manner that if both SS1 and SS2 are both OPEN ( Overdrive ), it won't be possible to engage the coast clutch. There are just too many things to fail for a bugout vehicle here, and besides, it deters others from asking to borrow this thing, as no one else knows what all the switches do.
Your observation rings true with me too. All that electrical energy goes to heat. It wouldn't surprise me to see precup temps over 400 degrees F during engine run, then dumping 14 volts at 25 amps ( over 300 watts ) into the plugs... can't say that's doing anyone any favors.
On top of that, the mechanical "work hardening" from additional thermal cycling just makes things worse.
I get the strong idea an educated human brain, knowing the physics behind glow plug operation , will make far optimal usage of them.
Cubey:
I think the biggest benefit you got by taking manual control over your GP is that you get to put ALL of the current available from your batteries into your starter motor during crank time, as you take advantage of the thermal inertia of the GP.
I experienced that if I dedicated the battery to the GP first, powering them seemed to warm the battery up a bit, so it could crank the engine a bit faster, and the whole trick is to compress fast enough to get to flash point.
Once the engine catches, then it's back to glow plugs a bit if it's really cold and the cups are still cold. Almost like goosing a choke. But as IDIBRONCO stated, engaging GP on a hot engine is bad news...and you nipped that in the bud.
Eventually, I think, piece by piece, I am going to end up replacing every bit of "high tech" on my old 1994 E-350 IDI with toggle switches. Next on my list is the E4OD transmission controller, which I want to replace with four toggle switches ( SS1, SS2, Torque Converter Lock, and Coast Clutch ) and a rheostat ( Line Pressure ). I can wire the switches in such a manner that if both SS1 and SS2 are both OPEN ( Overdrive ), it won't be possible to engage the coast clutch. There are just too many things to fail for a bugout vehicle here, and besides, it deters others from asking to borrow this thing, as no one else knows what all the switches do.
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XOLATEM
Full Access Member
I can see the thinking that would prompt this idea...but...
One...you are going to be very busy trying to drive and work the transmission and drink a cup of coffee all at the same time...maybe if you used a coffee camelback that was rated for hot drinks...
And Two...I would study the line pressure rise methodology and the effect on the clutches and geartrain and lube system first...and then decide if you want to risk torching a very expensive critical part of your driveline...
In short...yes...I have thought of the same thing...but nixed the idea when I gave it a lot of consideration...you are not going to be able to do all of the necessary functions with only one hand without a control setup and a lot of knowledge and practice.
Just setting the line pressure to an average setting is not going to work very well...it has to respond instantly to load...it needs to rise and fall.
Maybe only in a survival situation when the life expectancy of the unit is of lesser concern...
Just my .02....I wish you a lot of luck on that one...
XOLATEM
Full Access Member
Dang it...now it is back in my head...
The Girl and I were doing a celebratory burning of cardboard (moving boxes and such) and I got to thinking about the manual-switch E40D idea you had that I just could not stop myself from crapping on...
I am sorry for that...I am going to come up with a lame excuse for it and then move on...
There, I said it...
Okay...what occurred to me is that yes, it is possible to rig up a system to control the unit and still drink your coffee while driving...
The rheostat can be controlled by the accellerator pedal...in parallel with the throttle cable...!!! Just rob a 'drive-by-wire' system from a newer truck and graft it to your new wiring system and go to town with it.
Furthermore...have any of you heard of a 'semi-automatic' trans offered from the factory..?? Well...there WAS such a thing...Ford briefly offered one in the Maverick and/or Comet around 1970.
You had to shift the auto trans manually with the shift selector.
It was only briefly...I imagine most folks bought an automatic car because they had better things to do...than think about constantly shifting up and down...
I think that there is a book about something along those lines...look up..."The coddling of the American mind"
Anyway...on the shifting...just find a universal (read 'cheap') manual shifter and mount your switches on it so as to control the operation of the unit...and also...for kicks...leave the clutch pedal in the truck and use the clutch pedal to knock it up into neutral...!!
Separate lever for reverse and park and ride your semi-automatic E4OD with PRIDE....
So...there you have it...the possibilities are endless....
Have I redeemed myself...??
Just my .02
The Girl and I were doing a celebratory burning of cardboard (moving boxes and such) and I got to thinking about the manual-switch E40D idea you had that I just could not stop myself from crapping on...
I am sorry for that...I am going to come up with a lame excuse for it and then move on...
Along those lines...I believe that my noggin (or what is in my noggin) must be starting (?) to 'work harden' from all of this discourse...
There, I said it...
Okay...what occurred to me is that yes, it is possible to rig up a system to control the unit and still drink your coffee while driving...
The rheostat can be controlled by the accellerator pedal...in parallel with the throttle cable...!!! Just rob a 'drive-by-wire' system from a newer truck and graft it to your new wiring system and go to town with it.
Furthermore...have any of you heard of a 'semi-automatic' trans offered from the factory..?? Well...there WAS such a thing...Ford briefly offered one in the Maverick and/or Comet around 1970.
You had to shift the auto trans manually with the shift selector.
It was only briefly...I imagine most folks bought an automatic car because they had better things to do...than think about constantly shifting up and down...
I think that there is a book about something along those lines...look up..."The coddling of the American mind"
Anyway...on the shifting...just find a universal (read 'cheap') manual shifter and mount your switches on it so as to control the operation of the unit...and also...for kicks...leave the clutch pedal in the truck and use the clutch pedal to knock it up into neutral...!!
Separate lever for reverse and park and ride your semi-automatic E4OD with PRIDE....
So...there you have it...the possibilities are endless....
Have I redeemed myself...??
Just my .02
IDIBRONCO
IDIBRONCO
While I had no idea that they were offered in automotive applications, I am extremely familiar with semi auto (or auto clutch) transmissions and their usage.
Attachments
Old Goat
Full Access Member
VW had the Stick Shift trans back in the 70`s as I remember.
Goat
Goat
XOLATEM
Full Access Member
y
Came out in 1968...I remember reading about it in...(?) Popular Mechanics magazine...(I think)...and they described its operation...
Many years later...(in the 1980's)...I saw one in person...needed to put a clutch in it...yes..it still had a clutch, but, it was operated by a vacuum cannister and a lever...cutest little thing...must have had a switch at the shifter and a solenoid tapped into engine vacuum that would activate the cannister...it looked just like a power brake can.
If you rested your hand on the shifter the clutch would release...once you shifted into gear and took your hand off the shifter the clutch would apply.
Seems like that would keep people from burning up or busting a clutch if the apply and release was timed right.
Cupholders...can't remember if the article mentioned anything about them or if the 1968 VW Bug had them from the factory...
I don't think that they had glow plugs...spark plugs, maybe but not glow plugs...
Yes...the semi-automatic VW...
Came out in 1968...I remember reading about it in...(?) Popular Mechanics magazine...(I think)...and they described its operation...
Many years later...(in the 1980's)...I saw one in person...needed to put a clutch in it...yes..it still had a clutch, but, it was operated by a vacuum cannister and a lever...cutest little thing...must have had a switch at the shifter and a solenoid tapped into engine vacuum that would activate the cannister...it looked just like a power brake can.
If you rested your hand on the shifter the clutch would release...once you shifted into gear and took your hand off the shifter the clutch would apply.
Seems like that would keep people from burning up or busting a clutch if the apply and release was timed right.
Cupholders...can't remember if the article mentioned anything about them or if the 1968 VW Bug had them from the factory...
I don't think that they had glow plugs...spark plugs, maybe but not glow plugs...
Old Goat
Full Access Member
The Bugs have Spark Plugs.
I had a 67, and then a 69 that I bought new.
67 last year of the old Bumpers, low back seats, first yr of
sealed beam`s, dual brake system and 12V.
66 and older were 1300cc, 67 1500cc (only yr) then 69 1600cc.
and they have a clutch with a long cable going to the rear.
Very simple engine, and dependable. Think they got 32mpg.
The first Bugs were something like 40hp, think the one`s I had
were 56hp?
Wasn`t till the Rabbit that they went to Diesel and GP`s.
Goat
I had a 67, and then a 69 that I bought new.
67 last year of the old Bumpers, low back seats, first yr of
sealed beam`s, dual brake system and 12V.
66 and older were 1300cc, 67 1500cc (only yr) then 69 1600cc.
and they have a clutch with a long cable going to the rear.
Very simple engine, and dependable. Think they got 32mpg.
The first Bugs were something like 40hp, think the one`s I had
were 56hp?
Wasn`t till the Rabbit that they went to Diesel and GP`s.
Goat
XOLATEM
Full Access Member
do you remember anything about them having cupholders...?
Old Goat
Full Access Member
Volkswagen came out with one for Beetles in 1968, because that's the closest they could do with the space for a transmission. It was an automated clutch manual transmission triggered by a momentary switch in the shifter that you pressed down a bit to active before shifting. Plus a torque converter, so you could remain in gear while stopped and holding the brake pedal.
Type 3 was a "modern" 60s design and it was available with a fully automatic transmission, since they built it with a larger transmission space.
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