Moose on the loose

[motox tech]

Alright lets do this.

Lets set up some fact to do our math by.
Temperature is constant for what i am doing. We all know its colder at 9000 feet, but for maths sake lets say its the same.

the equation for comparing gases is pv=nRt

P = the absolute pressure of the gas, in psi
n = number of moles, in lbmol
V = the volume of the gas, in ft3/lbmol
T = the absolute temperature of the gas absolute, in °R
R = the universal gas law constant of 10.7316 ft3·psi/(lbmol·°R)

we have 7.3L of air or 446 in^3.
Pressure is what we are changing

And everything on the right side is constant for what we are doing.

We will use a base of 446in^3 @ 14.7psi and compare all of our numbers to that.

446in^3 * 14.7psi = 6556.2

446in^3 * 10.46psi = 4665.16

again we see the 30% difference. Now in order to make up for the lost air we need to make 4.24lbs of boost. This is just right off the bat, right off idle you would have to make 4 lbs of boost to keep up.

Lets look at what happens when at sea level we are running at 14.7 lbs of boost.

446in^3 8 29.4psi = 13112.4

we have effectively doubled our displacement, back to 9000 ft.

in order to make the same amount of air we have to make almost 19psi of boost

446in^3 * (10.46psi + 18.94psi) = 13112.4

So it would seem you need to make about 4.25 extra lbs of boost than the rest of us at 9000 feet, all the time. So you are really looking to make boost somewhere in the range of 5psi to almost 23psi depending on how much equivalent boost you want to make.

I think this makes sense

holy crap, wished id a payed attention in school

 

[motox tech]

Alright next question, still trying to catch up here but doing my best. If I need 5 to 25 psi to be equivalent to you guys, how does the fuel flow affect the boost? Like i said Im still rereading the first page of posts to try and keep up but thing im kinda following. So assuming I use the stock IP and go with a turbo w/ more boost capacity, then wouldnt that be basically the same as twin turbos moosed. It seems that im just trying to create more oxygen to fuel ratio. So why bother adding more fuel to the equation? This is probly a stupid question but Im sure you guys can enlighten me.
Thanks
Newly

 

[funnyman06]

Well if you want to to make the same amount of power as us then you would need to have exactly the same amount of fuel. The only difference is that you need to have more boost to use all the fuel.

 

[motox tech]

Im with ya, gotta feed the fire!!! so what combo would work?

 

[funnyman06]

I dont know a lot about turbos, models or what not. I am thinking might be best to use sequential duals, maybe the turbo off the DT466 as the larger of the two and idk what to use for the smaller turbo?

 

[icanfixall]

Adding nitros will give you more O2. Thats all it does to a motor. Also its not flamiable believe it od not. Adding water-**** will help also. Most will use window washer fluid for that. Its blue and burns great... Adding propane is like adding a catylist. It makes the diesel burn more completely. So now you have some choices for liquid or gas hp...

 

[Diesel JD]

I'm thinking a single turbo from a DT466 would be fine if you could figure out a reasonable way to mount it. Rkoch has used them, so has 91F2504X4, nice installs. One thing Flatlander convinced me of is that sequential turbos are going to blow head gaskets especially with a lot of fuel, just too much even with the studs. That said the DT turbo is rated to be efficient up to 35 psi. Still, I had thought it was our sick high compression ratio and not our tiny turbos that made sure anything over 13 psi non intercooled was wasted in superheated air. Now since Chris and Justin are our math gurus and some others know a lot about turbos...is it the turbo, or the high CR that makes the turbo be inefficient and superheat the charge air much beyond 13 non intercooled psi. In any case, much abouve 12 psi on a 6.9 or 15 psi on a 7.3 w/o studs is looking for trouble.

 

[funnyman06]

Its the turbo that is the problem. These turbos were only designed to to make 12ish pounds of boost because with our CR thats normally all we can run. The issue with a Single DT turbo is not how much it can boost its the fact that he could probably not get the DT to boost enough with the size motor we have. So if he has a smaller compressor to help him get there it might work out. Again at 9000 feet he needs at least 4 PSI of more boost than we get normally.

 

[Diesel JD]

True but, I'm hearing they make boost pretty quick compared to an IDI turbo, I've heard of one guy accidentally pulling 20 psi on his once. Would be curious to get 91F2504X4's take on this since he has one installed in his truck at the moment.

 

[ameristar1]

I dont know a lot about turbos, models or what not. I am thinking might be best to use sequential duals, maybe the turbo off the DT466 as the larger of the two and idk what to use for the smaller turbo?

www.turbobygarrett.com has the formulas for calculating airflow and boost requirements. They have a section for diesels, and IIRC some extra info for calculating high altitude applications.

Something cheap and easy: HX35 off a HO Cummins, getting pushed by a HX40 or DT466 turbo. The only concern would be keeping head gaskets on the thing.

 

[ameristar1]

True but, I'm hearing they make boost pretty quick compared to an IDI turbo, I've heard of one guy accidentally pulling 20 psi on his once. Would be curious to get 91F2504X4's take on this since he has one installed in his truck at the moment.

Got a chance to talk to him, and the single DT turbo boosts real nice, loves the way it runs and so far maxed 18psi. Plenty of power. Got a small leak that limits the boost to 15psi and that's what's saving it.

 

[motox tech]

How much boost am I going to gain a 30 below zero? The winters here can be brutal. Since the air is more dense w/ colder air if im pushing 18 at 60 degrees, wheres that gonna put me during the winter months. Unfortunately about 7 months are cold as a well diggers a--, can be anywhere from 0 to 30 below. How do i calculate this factor in? I dont mean to be a nit picker, i just want to consider all the factors that are thrown my way at altitude.

 

[bigoilburner19]

ok im having a stupid attack since im still new at this what is a moose pump? and why is it better then my ip

 

[FordGuy100]

-30 compared to +60* is going to be a big difference. There is a member up way northern Canada, and when its around -30 he was pushing something like 18psi vs. 15psi. Something like that.

I think if you can get a DT466 turbo, if it is good, maybe throw on a little bit smaller of a intake housing for faster spool up and to limit high end boost some. Are they wastegated turbo's? If not you will have to throw a external wastegate in the system to limit the boost somewhat.

 

[motox tech]

Ok, new to turbo lingo, guess I could research to save embarrasment, but oh well, you dont ask the question you dont get the answer. Who makes the DT466? would like to look into this option. And would this be benificial at all with stock IP?
Thanks for all you guys' advise and brainstorming.