Turbo Idea

[dansvan]

Why do you want more boost without more added fuel? Kind of like installing a turbo on our engines without adding any more fuel isn't it? You can claim "wow I've got 10psi of boost. I must be making tons more power." No, not without the fuel to go with it. Add the fuel, then here comes the heat. The point of compressing more air into the cylinder without added fuel is what? It also takes heat to spin the turbine wheel.

I'm all for more efficient power adders. I like the idea of twins. I've been working on the idea of two smaller turbos for some time now. But not for more HP, just quicker spool up and response.

My point is, people seem to think that the high boost number is the cure all end all. It's not. It just means there is a restriction in the system. I'd rather move 400cfm of air at 5psi than 300cfm at 10psi. My 5psi will make more power.

 

[82F100SWB]

Why do I want to go to a smaller exhaust housing and make it spool quicker, and make more boost, quite simply, now that it's not -40, I have absolutley zilch for boost below 1700, and even normal driving has me belching black smoke everywhere. I have the fuel to deal with more boost, no problem, but, there's no other way to get it with this turbo. FWIW, I have 10 psi by about 2500, and, am sitting at 13 by 3200, but, I'm still not running clean, and, I have room left to go EGT wise, by a good bit(max is 750 so far.)
I don't intend on running much more boost than I am running now, until I do head studs and maybe drop the compression... I just want this sucker to spool quicker.

 

[dansvan]

Sounds like a timing issue to me.

 

[f-two-fiddy]

Yep, that and/or boost/exhaust leaks.

Tired pump and injs?? When were they last changed? What do you mean by modd'd Pump? It sounds like your dumping to much fuel, to early. Which will limit boost down low.

If your going for high boost, I'd strongly recomend dumping the early Banks, for something with a wastegate, and a decent controller. The Mitsu turbo that banks uses is easly modded. I believe it's the same TD05 turbo that's used on the DSM turbo cars. Just slightly changed to Banks spec's. So boring the exhaust/larger wheel, and adding a custom compressor wheel should be relatively easy. It might even be a stock item for some custom DSM turbo builders.

 

[flatlander]

Why do I want to go to a smaller exhaust housing and make it spool quicker, and make more boost, quite simply, now that it's not -40, I have absolutley zilch for boost below 1700, and even normal driving has me belching black smoke everywhere. I have the fuel to deal with more boost, no problem, but, there's no other way to get it with this turbo. FWIW, I have 10 psi by about 2500, and, am sitting at 13 by 3200, but, I'm still not running clean, and, I have room left to go EGT wise, by a good bit(max is 750 so far.)
I don't intend on running much more boost than I am running now, until I do head studs and maybe drop the compression... I just want this sucker to spool quicker.

You might want to look into a propane system. I rode in Darrin Tosh's non wategated truck with a stock (turned up) pump and propane and it hits 15 psi (he needs a bigger gauge) almost immediately.

 

[82F100SWB]

The non gated Banks turbo is a Garrett T04B, which is extremely common, the only downfall of it is you have to use an external wastegate, which, aside from cost is no big deal. I shouldn't say that "normal" driving has me laying down black smoke, I'll put it this way, the fuel pedal and floor have a very close relationship in my truck. Don't get me wrong, this thing hauls, and will show a stock 6.0 it's taillights, I just want to get that turbo to spool up sooner, and, the cheapest, easiest way to do it is to change that exhaust housing, I picked up a core T04B off of a Detroit with a .70 A/R exhaust housing for $50 this morning... And, my turbo has a brand new cartridge as of when I installed it... What you're talking about doing to the Mitsu turbo is just as easily done to my Garrett, I just need to add an external wastegate.

No boost or exhaust leaks on the pressure side, injectors are just over a year old, pump, I came into used, it has approx 45,000 miles, and was built by a local injection shop to their turbo calibration. I've turned it up approx 3/4's of a turn from where it was previously set at, which had me running with a bit of smoke N/A, and clean with 8 psi tops with the turbo.

Propane, I'd like to stay away from, with how my truck gets used, I have no place to put a tank that I'd be comfortable with other than in the bed, and I need all the space I can get in there.

 

[Cowboy_Customs]

Why do I want to go to a smaller exhaust housing and make it spool quicker, and make more boost, quite simply, now that it's not -40, I have absolutley zilch for boost below 1700, and even normal driving has me belching black smoke everywhere. I have the fuel to deal with more boost, no problem, but, there's no other way to get it with this turbo. FWIW, I have 10 psi by about 2500, and, am sitting at 13 by 3200, but, I'm still not running clean, and, I have room left to go EGT wise, by a good bit(max is 750 so far.)
I don't intend on running much more boost than I am running now, until I do head studs and maybe drop the compression... I just want this sucker to spool quicker.

An exhaust housing will NOT increase boost pressure. It will bring the boost much quicker. ( I think thats what u were trying to say) A compressor housing WILL increase boost. I wouldnt be so worried about adding studs with an exhaust housing upgrade. Toss that exhaust housing on and go from there.

On the subject of twins.
In a twins setup, you have a regular turbo, and I will use the banks for an example, the banks turbo is the "small" turbo. And then you must have a large turbo. In the IDI case an HX40, or even a 50, would be the "large" turbo. 2 small turbos wont do anything the already supplied banks isnt doing.
Twin turbo's are only for high(er) horse power applications.

There are "towing" twins, but, (for a 1st gen cummins) thats 400 HP to reduce EGT's. and still pump out 400 usable HP.

a pair of small turbos only becomes a restriction and a showpiece. Not to mention if not wastegated, the secondary turbo will explode because its spinning so fast to try and create even more boost from the 15 PSI its already being force fed.

 

[f-two-fiddy]

The .70 Ar will get it to boost quicker BUT, it'll spin the compressor wheel faster, too. Your going to be carefull that you don't just build more heat. 15 lbs @ 800 degrees does you no good. 15 lbs @5-600 degrees does.There are shops out there with the tools to bore the housings to a T04B. Or anything you want, for that matter.

It'd prolly be a good idea to get a larger compressor, then control the boost with a wastegate and controller. Just because it's capable of 40lbs doesn't mean it has to run there. Do some searching for compressor maps. You want something that builds boost quickly, which the T03 will do, but at what temp?
With the fuel your running, it'd be waaaay easy to get to hot very quickly with the wrong setup.

 

[93turbo_animal]

Then you get a bunch more fat kids that jump into the center of the merry go round, and they get flung to the outside. Now you got twice as many fat kids on this merry go round cause they're all squished together.

Turbo is just like that with the air molecules... as the impeller spins, it chucks the molecules to the outside of the housing, and draws more in from the center. The centrifugal force of the impeller compresses them, just like how the fat kids feel on a merry go round that spinning really fast.

Ok so now your saying that the fat kids are air and when it gets spinning faster more fat kids are smashed in to the same size area. Which is what I been saying all along If you can only fit 10 fat kids(air molecules) at O rpm's and spinning 100 rpms smashes the kids together(air) so now you have room for 20 kids(air) in the same space you have doubled the air into the same space which is an increase of air flow to fill the same size space in the same amount of time or less= an increased airflow. A turbo by itself don't build preasure its just a fan and blows air give it a space to fill with air then it will start to over fill the area with extra air and now you'll start to build preasure. Its just like an air compressor with out an air tank it just pumps air in one side and out the other no preasure. Now start pumping it into an air tank and once the volume of air exceeds the volume of space it will start to build preasure.

so lets try this one more time a turbo increases power by forcing more air(airflow)into the same size cylinder so we can pump more fuel into the cylinder and still have it burn. The boost gauge is just a way to measure how much more air the turbo has stuffed into the cylinder above atmaspheric preasure. And just as it was mentioned air flow is more important then highest boost preasure.

Also I believe the twins that were mentioned were to be put on parallel not in series. So both turbos would build the same amount of boost just spool up wicked quick and with 2 of them still flow as much air as needed.

DISCLAIMER : No fat kids were hurt in the making of this post nor does this poster have anything against fat kids or how many can fit on a merry go round.

Also ranger wreck this has been a good discussion most cant keep from resorting to calling people names when they run out of intellectual statements

 

[dansvan]

Yes, two small turbos, one on each exhaust manifold. Not in series. Totally different topic there. Two properly sized small turbos one to each bank will out perform a single large one from both banks. But for cost, packaging, complexity, install, etc. they are not as common.

 

[Cheaper Jeeper]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing rangerwreck is an engineering student.

Who else would start such a semantic argument in direct contravention to the common vernacular? Just because the scientific definition of the terms don't exactly match the common usage of same.

Not criticizing - I'm an engineer myself. Over time you learn not to sweat the differences in the scientific and common uses of such terms - at leaset in non-engineering conversations. Unless you don't mind being though of as a total geek.

But WOE unto the engineer who uses such terms in the common manner (i.e. incorrectly) in a discussion with other engineers

 

[ttman4]

I wish I knew & understood more about turbos. I watch around here & other places, poke round on Ebay occasionally just looking at different kinds, styles, & wondering what all the different terms & #'s mean...etc,etc
Exmp: .70 Ar, HX40, T04B, .50, "Compressor side A/R is 1.10. Turbine side A/R is 1.15", turbo map, etc, etc
I assume "turbo map" would mean schematics or chart of turbo performances?
I assume all those other kind of #'s mean different inputs & outputs etc.

....& I'm still dumber than a box of rocks!!!

Anyway, some of this kind of info is things I want to pursue at later dates, when I got more time & $$$$.
All I know is that my '90 non gated ATS setup won't (never has) pull worth a da*n below 2200rpm under some of my "big loads" & I better speed shift to keep RPM's up. Itll sit there & pull at 2K & above, but won't "pull out" to higher gear below 22K. (however, I've always tried to load & haul too da*n much)

(telling my old age now,but) from my trucking days in late '60-'70s, I never knew what a wastegate was till late '80's. Saw 'em, but thought they was some "trinket" for looks on sports cars.
We used to just turn the pump fuel & rpms up till flames & fuel dribbled out'a the stack onto the trailer, load, & car windshields behind us & "go like h*ll".
We did know that "too much of a good thing" was, well.....if we "wanted to be the first one there," 'ya just hung a rag over the gauges & drove like H*LL!

Fuel was pretty hi too....7,8,11,15,20 cents/gal....finally hit 30cents too!

 

[h2odrx]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing rangerwreck is an engineering student.

Who else would start such a semantic argument in direct contravention to the common vernacular? Just because the scientific definition of the terms don't exactly match the common usage of same.

Not criticizing - I'm an engineer myself. Over time you learn not to sweat the differences in the scientific and common uses of such terms - at leaset in non-engineering conversations. Unless you don't mind being though of as a total geek.

But WOE unto the engineer who uses such terms in the common manner (i.e. incorrectly) in a discussion with other engineers

 

[moparmike91]

as for the lean out,,ive saw many cummins engine failures and never had a lean out failure,,lean out u get white smoke no power,,u need fule to make boost,,they go hand in hand,,lots fuel causes turdo to produce lots boost,,noi fuel no boost,,,big turbos require lots of fuel to be fed to them,,,,smaller housing produces faster spool up there fore less lag,,sometimes buying the biggest baddest turbo isnt the answer..