SRW vs. DRW???

[argve]

I noticed on a buddies 3/4 ton 85 SRW vs the Enterprise (1 ton dually) - both 2wd - that the front end was much beefier on the E than his. I don't know if it was because of the years difference or that it was F350 vs F250.

 

[Agnem]

On most Fords I ever messed with, the SRW frame is something like 42" outside measure.

A "dualie" frame is also 42" wide and the axle is quite a bit wider than a SRW.

A genuine DRW chassis-cab truck is industry standard 34-1/2" frame width, with the axle being some 16" or so narrower than a "dualie".


On most SRW trucks I have tried, a DRW wheel will come against the leaf-springs long before it bottoms on the mounting surface.

Also, the rear spring hangers of an SRW are often farther from the rails than those of a "dualie", compounding problems when trying to swap things around.

Of course, there are always exceptions to all of this.



I see many many 3/4-ton SRW trucks of all brands running around my area that have the SRW wheels on the front and DRWs mounted to the rear via thick spacers behind the inside wheels to push them out away from spring interference.


Many of these have the rear wheels just bolted on in no well thought out fashion, using flat-faced hub-centric wheels on spacers that have no means of centering the wheels; or, they have lug-centric "coined" wheels mounted on spacers that lack the proper sockets for the "coins" to rest in.

Or worse yet, they have a mixture of junk-yard wheels, some being "coined" lug-centric, some being flat-faced hub-centric, with the odd Chevy wheel thrown in the mix.

All of these scenarios are a recipe for wheel slippage and the resultant wallowing out of the stud-holes and chewing big grooves in the studs.


Best is to MEASURE carefully and swap on a genuine DRW rear with the wheels that are MEANT to be on it.

That's good info Damon. As I have been contemplating getting new tires for the Moose truck, I have been wondering if there was a way to pull off dually tires with a SRW axle. Sounds like you've tried it and confirmed they hit. That saves me some time fooling around with it.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Wow I didnt know it was that freakin complicated

It actually isn't complicated at all:

a) cab-chassis dually axles are as wide as SRW pickup-bed axles, but the spring perches are closer together to match the narrower frame.

b) pickup-bed dually axles are wider than the SRW pickup-bed axles and so wider than the cab-chassis dually axles), but their spring perches are just as far apart as those of the SRW axle.

So what it boils down to is just what Midnight Rider said about using the proper axles for your frame - if you have a cab-chassis truck you need a cab-chassis axle, if you have a pickup-bed truck you need a pickup-bed axle - it's when people start mixing and matching parts and rigging their own stuff when things get real scary...

That is probably true, but not a day passes that I don't get crowded over by some "recreational" driver in a hip-fendered dualie who is running with the entire fender and outer wheel ON MY SIDE OF THE YELLOW LINE.

That's cause they don't pay enough attention to their dimensions - I never even step on the yellow line, let alone cross it - it's all about observing your surroundings and being courteous to others, which I guess many people don't care for no more these days.[/QUOTE]

Pay close attention to the number of leafs in the spring pack if you pull a dually axle from a junk yard. The main sping pack on my F250 and the F350 I pulled my axle from were the same. The F350 had a factory overload spring added. Other than that there was no difference.

Duane, you're right, even with the factory tow-package my dually's rear packs were much similar to my friend's F250HD's packs. I did of course change that so the leaf packs match the side of trailer I pulled at the time, that's why now my ass end sits as high as it does on a 4x4 truck, but without having them silly 4" blocks

Although my truck is a DRW chassis-cab ton, were I to find a Dana-80 one, I would swap in the wider "dualie" rear on account of my steel flat is a full 8-foot wide and the narrower chassis-cab axle is lost under there; a "dualie" axle would put the outer tires closer to the perimeters of the bed and most likely be even more stable.

Aren't the cab-chassis D80s still only 7ft wide tho? Certainly seems so with the 10-lug F-Superduty trucks, and those are the only pre-metric-lug-pattern trucks that I know have D80s. Some newer F350 pickups (such as the 2000 crew dually that I serviced last weekend) also have the D80, and it's 8ft wide, but it's the wrong lug pattern for you, and spring perches are likely too far apart anyways.

 

[u2slow]

Buy a pair of 19.5" SRW wheels and rubber for the back. With 4500-5000# rating on each tire, you can easily match a dually's axle capacity.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

That's good info Damon. As I have been contemplating getting new tires for the Moose truck, I have been wondering if there was a way to pull off dually tires with a SRW axle. Sounds like you've tried it and confirmed they hit. That saves me some time fooling around with it.

They do indeed hit, I've also tried it, with my buddy's F250 (not sure if he knows tho, lol). You'd need 2" or 3" spacers between the hub flange and the wheels. However there is the issue with centering the wheels, as hub-centering won't work no more cause the hubs taper down from the flange out, so it will have to be lug-centered, but they are not coined like Dodge wheels are. That said, I seem to recall Chevy dually wheels are lug-centered, but they still use plat flanges like our trucks do - if they can pull it off, why can't we? Starmilt will have to chime in on this, he has been running spacers for years and years without any issues - Star, are your spacers flat-faced, and do you use the factory-style lug nuts on them?

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Buy a pair of 19.5" SRW wheels and rubber for the back. With 4500-5000# rating on each tire, you can easily match a dually's axle capacity.

You'll need a pair for the front too tho, and while it would be an awesome setup how expensive would that get, compared to just getting a pair of new 235/85-16s for the front of the truck and then moving all current tires back to the dually axle? If buying all new dually wheels and rubber for them I could see it being about the same overall cost, but with factory dually axles and wheels being fairly reasonably available in junkyards the 19.5s would be the more costly option, methinks.

 

[u2slow]

You'll need a pair for the front too tho, and while it would be an awesome setup how expensive would that get, compared to just getting a pair of new 235/85-16s for the front of the truck and then moving all current tires back to the dually axle? If buying all new dually wheels and rubber for them I could see it being about the same overall cost, but with factory dually axles and wheels being fairly reasonably available in junkyards the 19.5s would be the more costly option, methinks.

I only put 2 on the rear of my E350 to keep it affordable and easy. You do get into a 33" tire to fit the Vision wheels, so factor that into your axle ratio needs.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Right, but honestly 19.5s on one axle and not the other would look kinda goofy - your E350 pulls it off cause it's a bus, but on a truck it just won't look right IMHO.

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

Aren't the cab-chassis D80s still only 7ft wide tho? Certainly seems so with the 10-lug F-Superduty trucks, and those are the only pre-metric-lug-pattern trucks that I know have D80s. Some newer F350 pickups (such as the 2000 crew dually that I serviced last weekend) also have the D80, and it's 8ft wide, but it's the wrong lug pattern for you, and spring perches are likely too far apart anyways.

I was thinking more along the idea of a Dodge Dana-80, or, better yet, one from a later model F-450 with the BIG hubs and 19.5 wheels; I have laid eyes on some of both types available for sale, but am holding out for a 3:55, whereas all I have found for sale have been 4:10s and 4:88s.


So long as the inside wheels clear everything, moving or adding spring perches, or for that matter re-spacing the spring-hangers, is no hill for a climber.


Although, sometimes my ambitions almost exceed my ingenuities.

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

You'd need 2" or 3" spacers between the hub flange and the wheels. However there is the issue with centering the wheels, as hub-centering won't work no more cause the hubs taper down from the flange out, so it will have to be lug-centered, but they are not coined like Dodge wheels are.

Spacers can be had or made to accomodate either lug-centric or hub-centric wheels.

From way back in the old split-ring era, up until about mid-1983 when Ford started using the Flanged Washer nuts and hub-centric wheels, both Dodge and Ford used the exact same "COINED" DRW wheels, nuts, studs, and all.

If one can find or make the more common coined spacers, Dodge coined wheels can be used.

Dodge dropped the coined wheels and conical nuts in 1994; since 1994, Dodge wheels are somewhat similar to later Fords.

I seem to recall Chevy dually wheels are lug-centered, but they still use plat flanges like our trucks do -

Actually, Chevy has used the exact same wheel configuration from about the mid-sixties right up to present day.

Chevy DRWs are flat-faced TIGHTLY HUB-CENTRIC, so tight in fact that often a sledge-hammer is required to knock them loose; BUT, curiously, Chevy uses a conical counter-sunk plate on top of the wheels and CONICAL NUTs.


With Chevy's hub-centric wheel, there is absolutely no reason they couldn't use flange-washered nuts instead of the plate/conical-nut system.

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

That's good info Damon. As I have been contemplating getting new tires for the Moose truck, I have been wondering if there was a way to pull off dually tires with a SRW axle. Sounds like you've tried it and confirmed they hit. That saves me some time fooling around with it.

Actually, there is a very common, very stout, readily available solution on nearly every 4X4 DRW truck, be they Ford, Dodge, or Chevy.

Almost EVERY DRW 4x4 front axle is nothing more than a common 3/4-ton SRW axle with three- or four-inch spacers bolted between the SRW hub and DRW wheel.

Even the conical nuts that hold these spacers on are the very same ones that would hold the SRW wheel, yet they use the DRW studs and nuts to mount the DRW wheel.

Although I haven't actually tried it, I see no reason why these spacers could not be also employed on the rear.




One thing we need to remember in our DRW wheel discussion is that, while Ford and Dodge wheels are pretty much interchangable, Chevy wheels have a smaller center-hole that must be lathe-turned to fit on a Ford or Dodge.

Lathe turning Chevy 19.5 "bread-truck" wheels to fit Ford and Dodge trucks is commonly done in my area.

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

LOOK AT IT FROM ANOTHER ANGLE

These have been around for years :

http://www.jcwhitney.com/dual-wheel-adapter-sets/p2003967.jcwx


Another company, ARROWCRAFT, has been marketing them since before I could drive; heck, they even advertised them in the back of comic books, right along with the X-Ray glasses that were supposed to make you be able to see through clothes.

Although the ones pictured are for an 8-lug truck, they also make them in five- and six-lug configuration.

Actually, the way they work is rather neat; you leave your standard SRW wheels mounted on the hub; you replace the conical nuts with the hollow-ended extension bolts; slip on the spacer; mount a second standard SRW wheel onto all that and, finally, finish by putting the original conical nuts onto the protruding studs.



What I find un-believable is that, after over fifty years of a dozen or more companies making and marketing these kits, and me growing up in a huge tire shop that is located at a park-way exit and two major highways, between two popular vacation/recreational lakes, fixing and selling tires for locals, long-haulers, and tourists of all types, I have not to this day ever laid eyes on one of those kits actually in use on a vehicle; I find that fact to be amazing.

 

[crashnzuk]

I have seen a set of those long lug nut spacer deals in use, but it was on an off-road only Samurai. Brent Bradshaw of Trail Tough Suzuki Stuff has a duals on all 4 positions on his old Samurai rock buggy called the Crustacean. He was running eight 34x9.50/15 narrow super swampers. It's a pretty wacky rig.

As far as converting a pickup to a dually and still using the narrow axle, you'd have to move (tub) your wheelwells to clear the inside tires as well as inboard the springs. If you move to a flatbed, all you have to do is move the springs.

On the newer F450s and up, the outside to outside measurement on the outer tires is almost 93". I think this is very similar to a dually pickup, though I don't have a truck to measure and confirm. I checked our late model with the huge Eaton? rear as well as our older truck with the Dana 80, both the same.
Travis..

 

[timothyr1014]

I have always heard (and logically believed) that if fully loaded, using spacers will cause excess bearing wear due to the wheel not being centered/balanced on the hub. Also, while the mirrors are the widest part, there is the perception of extra width because of the pivot points, with a western hauler or flatbed, the width change occurs further forward so the compensation is more "natural" feeling when your behind the wheel.

Although I love my dually for heavy hauling and towing, one thing to keep in mind is traction loss in the snow...the weight in the back end is now distributed over 4 contact patches instead of 2...when running in snow with lighter loads I usually pull 2 off, makes a big difference

 

[LCAM-01XA]

I was thinking more along the idea of a Dodge Dana-80, or, better yet, one from a later model F-450 with the BIG hubs and 19.5 wheels; I have laid eyes on some of both types available for sale, but am holding out for a 3:55, whereas all I have found for sale have been 4:10s and 4:88s.

What will you do for the front then, use the matching front axle off the newer truck?

Actually, Chevy has used the exact same wheel configuration from about the mid-sixties right up to present day.

Chevy DRWs are flat-faced TIGHTLY HUB-CENTRIC, so tight in fact that often a sledge-hammer is required to knock them loose; BUT, curiously, Chevy uses a "coined" plate on top of the wheels and CONICAL NUTs.


With Chevy's hub-centric wheel, there is absolutely no reason they couldn't use flange-washered nuts instead of the plate/conical-nut system.

Ah, so that's where the coined plate I'll be using when building my spare wheel carrier came from - I always wondered, I found it in a junkyard and took it, and now I know what it really is for. In that case, I have a question - if a Chevy coined plate is slipped onto a flat-face hub flange (provided it clears the hub one way or another) will that allow coined wheels to be used on that flat-faced hub?

Almost EVERY DRW 4x4 front axle is nothing more than a common 3/4-ton SRW axle with three- or four-inch spacers bolted between the SRW hub and DRW wheel.

Even the conical nuts that hold these spacers on are the very same ones that would hold the SRW wheel, yet they use the DRW studs and nuts to mount the DRW wheel.

Not true for the 8 on 6.5" lug pattern Dana 50 and Dana 60 Ford axles - the dually hub is different from the SRW hub, same situation with the late '80s and early '90s Dodges, again hubs are totally different. Newer Dodges are done in the manner you described tho, and I'm not sure how newer Fords and Chevys are.

As far as converting a pickup to a dually and still using the narrow axle, you'd have to move (tub) your wheelwells to clear the inside tires as well as inboard the springs. If you move to a flatbed, all you have to do is move the springs.

With Ford pickup trucks tho the springs are already very close to the frame rails, no way you can gain 2" of extra clearance even if you put he springs right against the frame rails...

Although I love my dually for heavy hauling and towing, one thing to keep in mind is traction loss in the snow...the weight in the back end is now distributed over 4 contact patches instead of 2...when running in snow with lighter loads I usually pull 2 off, makes a big difference

I just load mine down with sand, no way I give up my two on-the-ground spare wheels for just a small amount of traction. Snow is not the only enemy tho, wet grass is evil too, and wet grass on top of muddy soil is the absolute worst non-winter nightmare for a dually.