moose power?

[seawalkersee]

429, I think you mistook mine as a "Ha Ha, look what I can do post" when it was a "Lets look outside this here cardboard square thingy". I am going to run an IC in the front of my stuff. I completely understand the need for an IC and though you have the math to support exactly what you are posting (BTW, if you have a book or link or something of the sort so I can map my setup that would be GREAT), and I only have my theory and comparisons to use CFM wise.

There was a factory IC on my SC that had a puller fan. That car made 19# with no OD and I later found out it was because the exhaust was restrictive. BUT, I am not trying to make a powerhouse unit. I am still running the 9", 5 lug, 28 spline, 2 pc. driveshaft, small bearing in the rear. Make no mistake, this thing could send that crap to the moon with my current build (to the OP, you may want to look it up as it is REALLY close to what you are wanting to do) NA. I just want it to be as efficient as possible, that is the reason for me adding the SC. 4X4, 20ish mpg, tows anything, and runs on a mix of #2 and WMO.

SWS

P.S. I do not get in ******* contests on line. Please do not take it that way and I am 100% serious about your source of math in finding out my CFM/degrees.

 

[Agnem]

I think the text that pops up on the screen like a typewriter explains that it is a stock BB injector, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[429idi]

429, I think you mistook mine as a "Ha Ha, look what I can do post" when it was a "Lets look outside this here cardboard square thingy". I am going to run an IC in the front of my stuff. I completely understand the need for an IC and though you have the math to support exactly what you are posting (BTW, if you have a book or link or something of the sort so I can map my setup that would be GREAT), and I only have my theory and comparisons to use CFM wise.

There was a factory IC on my SC that had a puller fan. That car made 19# with no OD and I later found out it was because the exhaust was restrictive. BUT, I am not trying to make a powerhouse unit. I am still running the 9", 5 lug, 28 spline, 2 pc. driveshaft, small bearing in the rear. Make no mistake, this thing could send that crap to the moon with my current build (to the OP, you may want to look it up as it is REALLY close to what you are wanting to do) NA. I just want it to be as efficient as possible, that is the reason for me adding the SC. 4X4, 20ish mpg, tows anything, and runs on a mix of #2 and WMO.

SWS

P.S. I do not get in ******* contests on line. Please do not take it that way and I am 100% serious about your source of math in finding out my CFM/degrees.

Ya, it's hard to communicate through text, especially on these forums, without sounding like an a hole some times. I didn't think you were doing that just trying to show both sides. The original post was for an 8-71, not blowers in general.

As for the math, I have posted it on this thread already once, but I'll post it again.........

these two are from www.turbobygarrett.com

Map req= (Wa x R x (460+tm))/(ve x (n/2) x vd)

and

Wa=(MAP x ve x (n/2) x vd) / (R x (460+tm))

Where:

· MAPreq = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia) required to meet the horsepower target
· Wa = Airflowactual(lb/min)
· R = Gas Constant = 639.6
· Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees F)
· VE = Volumetric Efficiency
· N = Engine speed (RPM)
· Vd = engine displacement in cubic inches

This one is to figure exit temps based on boost @ efficiency. I don't remember where I got this one.

Tout = {Tin + Tin x [-1+(Pout/Pin)0.263]} / efficiency

Tin= ambient deg F + 460 = 530 deg R
Pin= -0.5 psig + 14.7 = 14.2 psia (intake restriction)
Pout= boost psig + 14.7 = psia
Pout/Pin = (this is the pressure ratio)

If you read back a page or two I explained them better.

 

[mabc926]

Even if a blower would work good for a diesel, I still wouldn't use one, what's a diesel without that turbo whistle?

 

[George_7.3IDI]

anyone got a link to the vids of mels misters? or where i can get the typ4 cam?

Here's the link for the Moose Misters video. Courtesy of JesterPgh a member who has the video on his photobucket site.

 

[88 Ford]

You are comparing an eaton m-90 to a detroit 8-71. The eaton superchargers are made to make a lot over atmospheric pressure boost, the detroit blowers were not. The eaton superchargers can turn 12,000 rpm continually, whereas the detroits have to be modified to spin with a gasser (not sure of the rpm). There is a reason all the manufacturers use eaton blowers instead of 8-71 blowers. Sure 8-71's look cool, but I just don't think that is the best choice. Why do you think Detroit went to using turbochargers? Also, the m90's are easier to run an intercooler, and if you bolt an 8-71 to go straight into your intake, you can't cool the air.

If psi and cfm are all you care about, than just about anything will work, but air temperature is just as important as those two. The number on your boost gauge doesn't mean everything.

If your 6.9 at 70 degrees n/a (14.7psia) 3300rpm will flow 25lbs/min, than with 15psi boost (29.7psia) non i/c at 300degrees the same engine will flow 50lbs/min right? Wrong. It will only flow 35lbs/min. If you get that temp down to 130 degrees ( typical intercooled temperature) you'll be at 46 lbs/min. All these would be at about the same cfm, just more actual air.

I'm not saying nobody should put on an 8-71 blower it would be cool, and it would work okay, but I don't think it would be any better than the turbos that are already widely available. Now, if you absolutely need the boost right off the line, that's a different story, but the turbo truck will be better off right when it spools.

I still think the best think for about 20psi the best thing would be an m112 blower pushing into the ats or banks turbo, then off to the intercooler. Then, the supercharger would only have to make 8psi boost, which would keep it efficient, with a low power draw, and have really good top end. You would probably have to up size your turbine though.

I'm actually gonna use an M112. Why do you think that it would be better to push the blower through the turbo and not the other way around?

 

[429idi]

I'm actually gonna use an M112. Why do you think that it would be better to push the blower through the turbo and not the other way around?

Since in a compound setup, you use a high flow low pressure turbo into a high pressure turbo, it just makes sense. You can't flow more air than which ever one you put first. So if the supercharger will flow less air than the turbo, then put the super last. I'll bet if you put a blower that big behind your turbo, there would actually be a vacuum between the two. Or same thing if you wanted to run a gt45r turbo with that supercharger, you would run the turbo first.

It's just the same as a compound turbo setup, always run the fresh air through the big turbo first because you are creating a different atmosphere for the small high pressure turbo.

 

[seawalkersee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZHlfipYEbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFa1FcvoG3M&feature=related
These two are the Hummer. 6.5 and I think the SC is a 2.3 whipple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv-9pxGMrQE&feature=related

SWS

 

[Black dawg]

I think the text that pops up on the screen like a typewriter explains that it is a stock BB injector, if I'm not mistaken.

The vid shows "stock letter code A".

 

[88 Ford]

Since in a compound setup, you use a high flow low pressure turbo into a high pressure turbo, it just makes sense. You can't flow more air than which ever one you put first. So if the supercharger will flow less air than the turbo, then put the super last. I'll bet if you put a blower that big behind your turbo, there would actually be a vacuum between the two. Or same thing if you wanted to run a gt45r turbo with that supercharger, you would run the turbo first.

It's just the same as a compound turbo setup, always run the fresh air through the big turbo first because you are creating a different atmosphere for the small high pressure turbo.

My thought was that i was going to run more boost through the turbo to avoid that. I was thinking that if the turbo was pushing enough air that it would force more air into the supercharger vains and then the supercharger would compress it further from ther. Idk what do you think? I'm definitely gonna have to tune the system though.

 

[blown84]

thanks for the help guys. hopefully the ceramic coated pistons will keep me from meltin the mill down. lol.

heres a thought for you 88 ford and 429idi: i would run the turbo, blowin into the SC. it just makes sense to me. but what might could happen if you do is what interestst me more. you dont have this kinda deal in compound turbo setups, where everything is exhaust driven, and this idea has no scientific backin, just reasonin thought. if you have a supercharger pushin 8 to 10 psi, after the turbo, it has to get its air somewhere. SO, if the super has to pull air across the impeller wheel, it MIGHT be possible that it would speed up the turbo. IF so, this would cause the turbine to pull exhaust gas out of the motor, generatin more torque on the bottom end, as well has speedin the turbo up, to make it just that much faster to spool up...

 

[429idi]

thanks for the help guys. hopefully the ceramic coated pistons will keep me from meltin the mill down. lol.

heres a thought for you 88 ford and 429idi: i would run the turbo, blowin into the SC. it just makes sense to me. but what might could happen if you do is what interestst me more. you dont have this kinda deal in compound turbo setups, where everything is exhaust driven, and this idea has no scientific backin, just reasonin thought. if you have a supercharger pushin 8 to 10 psi, after the turbo, it has to get its air somewhere. SO, if the super has to pull air across the impeller wheel, it MIGHT be possible that it would speed up the turbo. IF so, this would cause the turbine to pull exhaust gas out of the motor, generatin more torque on the bottom end, as well has speedin the turbo up, to make it just that much faster to spool up...

Pulling the air across the impeller would create a vacuum. That's like saying you could put that turbo on a bigger engine, and it will suck the air through, there is no benefit. If the turbo is maxed, it's maxed, you wouldn't want to over speed it would you?

There are a few reasons I would choose to run the 112 first.

1. Lets say that you will be running 10psi, the supercharger will be putting out air at 200 degrees.

wa= (24.7 x .85 x 1650 x 420) / (639.6 x 660) = 35lbs/min

That's effectively turning your 6.9l into a 9.66l engine, you need a bigger turbo.

2. The second reason is that the parasitic hp draw from the blower increases with pressure and rpm.

At it's max speed, at 10psi, the m112 draws 58hp!
Since it is a fixed displacement pump, it will flow almost the same amount of air at a given rpm no matter what pressure it is pushing. So, if you ran the blower first, here is what would happen. It would start pushing the air @10psi immediately into the turbo, and a couple of things will happen. First, the increased volume would go out the exhaust to the turbine aiding in spooling the turbo ( I would definitely up size turbine housing). The second thing that would happen, is when the turbo spools, it will need less pressure on the inlet to make the pressure ( max final pressure 20psi boost with the m112). To make 20 psi the blower would need to push only 7.35 psi (a pressure ratio of 1.5:1) that's 22.05 psia x 1.5 (turbo p/r) and you get 33.08psia- 14.7 = 18.375 psi boost, not exactly 20, but it's close enough for our reasons. That means the blower will only be drawing 45hp or less. In reality the blower would only be running a p/r of 1.3:1 4.6psi boost and drawing 38 hp max.

3. No matter what you do, if you use the blower as your final drive, or final compressor, the power draw will be there. If they will draw 58hp at 10 psi, how much do you think they will draw at 20psi?

I may have left something out, so I'll put it in another post if I did.
Also, in my first post I said I would use an m112, I meant m122.

An inter cooler will be necessary!

 

[blown84]

429, i failed to make note of it, but i was referrin to causin the turbo to spool quicker on the bottom end. once the motor is wound up, it would put positive pressure on the supercharger inlet.

 

[farm_boy1692]

hay ive got sumthin to share for you guys i had a buddie of that had a 1986 f259 6.9 i dont remember how big his turbo was but it was putin out any where between 20 and 32 psi i had custom cut low comp pistions some head work done and a pump off a 93 that was turnded up 3 whole flats and two on the torqe screw and that truck was putin out over 400 hp at the rear tires with around 700 ft lb tq and the engine rebulib was only a 30 over. the high horse in these are posible but its like some one on here said everyengine is different some cant do this some could go way past.

 

[farm_boy1692]

now for what im doin to mine and it is goin to work and do not dare steal my ideas cause im goin to purposely leave out a coulpe things.

oh lets start out with that the engine is a 84 it is goin to have cut low comp pistons, havent decided on the twin turbos yet ported and polished 7.3 heads with fire rings and o rings drilled and taped for 120 hp 12v cummins injectors, 60 over engine rebiuld on everything, water ****, banks tecnicooler for a 99 psd with 3.5 boost tubes, either a custom built factory turbo 7.3 pump or a in lime 8 p pump off a v8 perkins that will be modded, air dog 2 200, custom ground cam, raised displacement above a 7.3, srtight 14 or 15.1 copresion, with fully equiped gages, and a few other trade secrets.