Weird issue with timing my bull moose

[IDIoit]

I'm still feeling its fuel delivery issues. I know you posted there is correct pressure leaving the fuel filter. But whats the injection pump inlet fuel pressure? I can't tell you where to find that either. Only know that you had pressure issues before and installing an electric lift pump fixed that. So did the injection pump screen get loaded up because something got past the new fuel filter? You will have to ask permission to remove the back of the pump from Mel to check this screen. I do have a nice video from u tube that shows the way this pump works. The idea of correctly moving the pump towards advance but getting retarded timing is not of this world. But there it is happening to you. Even if the gear was timed off 1 tooth it still will advance the timing no matter what if you turn the pump in the passenger direction.. Maybe try a cheap electric lift pump just to verify the pump you have now is not suffering a pressure drop at 2000 rpm draw of fuel flow. You can have proper pressure but not proper flow rate. then the pressure sags and the timing WILL change. I'm really reaching now but not much else makes sence. It was bad pressure and a new lift pump fixed that. But now that same symptom has returned....

i would not agree with that.(respectfully of course )
with the mechanical lift pump, and low fuel pressure, it did not perform well, and no smoke.
here is a vid of me running through 1-5 with the old mechanical lift pump.
when i installed the facet, i gained alot of performance! and it started to smoke as expected.
im going to advance/retard back to the same setting later today (6.5/7) which is the same setting i had in this video,
to show ya the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1QPrqWjhyI&list=UUeOaJTOsAypB8fJnjLCWSkQ

 

[icanfixall]

Hers is how the fuel makes the pump function.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veEONfhL3Uk
Call me if you want to talk too.

 

[Clb]

So even if the housing gear was off the timing marks it would simply be adv/ret. Acordinly?
Thats not hapening( ip colcked at 12-6)
Seems to run strong on fuel, idle at 7 seemed to be overfueled( heavy grey/white haze) not black, but its a bull... So thats a lot of fuel .
At 9.9 its cleaner. On fuel the after a shift part ,it would pull good detectable haze, egt climb at a slow but steady rate, spool is mad fast compared to my 093 stocker.
At the shift its loading up ( blows black) clears up and pulls well.
I dont know about lag but the 0-?12# ( saw a lot at 9) boost is snappy.
Eng. sounds like its reacting to throttle inputs, does not lay down when you mat it' on the open road hot rodder style blitz down the freeway it would smoke( bad analogy) "pass "gassers like a 7k sports car.
This would make me think its pretty close, mine seems peppier outta the hole when retarded also' as Mel stated about timing by ear not being something to normaly do. The truck seems to pull strong and has no over run when the throttle is snapped shut. Nor does it puke out the pipe.
On the flat foot pull on the open road egt did/would/could climb past 1200*.
brian
how was the rattle on cold start?
How did it act comming off the high idle advance?
I can't see how its timing advances top to the driver BUT it did, we shot this truck same as mine and I hit mine with 2 kent moore 33300's and a matco ferret on my way home all within one deg. As much as I wanna blame the meter it aint that!
The big fmic seems good.
Perhaps you need to take it down under where the earths rotation will fix it.

Oh and hey Mel them injectors and bull moose( wow) NICE!
Maybe this will shed some light .
Cb

 

[Clb]

Btw fwiw...
I don't feel there is a big fuel delivery problem happening here, now I AM Interested in a session of talk on the top of pump to driver side advance( yes no beer was consumed AND there were NO hot wimmens in the shop) I can't say why its happening but it did.
Cb

 

[IDIoit]

litterally no rattle when i light it off this morning.
not like it used to. with the old IP.

i didnt get the chance to hear it come off idle, i was kinda late getting the kiddo to school
i let it warm up for 2-3 min, but i had to jam.

ill repeat and video the process in the AM.

another thing i wanna throw out there, is that injectors were changed.
DBcarillio informed me that the previous injectors i had were junk,
im gonna ask him to chime in and give us the codes and what they popped at.
im not certain what pressure the Mark II's pop at, but could shed some light
those were the only 3 changes i did when i did the install.

 

[icanfixall]

Brian you have NOT done anything wrong. But there is a problem we can't collectively figure out. So short of opening up the back area of the injection pump only with the permission from Mel or removing the pump and sending it back to Mel for inspection I really can't send you down any other roads to whats happening here. I will gladly talk with you by cell if that might help. Makes me want to drive up to be right there helping. We all know something is not right. Thats firm. Its just finding whats not right and fixing it. Gotta go dig in the friggen garden.. Wifey took the day off so I'm in HELL for 3 more days digging and planting and building garden modified walls. So everything else sits...

 

[IDIoit]

Gary,
My day is hell right now!
im having to babysit 2 24&30 year olds!
and work on several different projects at the same time
i greatly appreciate the thought, but what could a phone call accomplish at this point in my issue?
not that i dont enjoy bullshittin with ya, just too many irons that need to be forged today.

sunday, im tearing the truck apart and im gonna send this pump to Mel, for inspection.
i gotta tear off my turbo and send it to Russ anyways.
so the truck will be down for a while.
i dont like having weird issues like this. and i need to get to the bottom of this.
it seems as if i have done everything correctly. ive went through all of the trouble shooting i can do.
Timing it by ear, is not the way i want to roll. even tho Mel suggested it, for my piece of mind, i need to pin point the problem.
my Type A personality wont let me just let it slide.
it will bug the crap out of me for the rest of my life, and would probably make me want to sell the damn truck, which would be a shame, because of the time and love i have given it.
there is definitely an issue that needs addressed.

 

[The Warden]

One thought that just popped into my mind...this is definitely grasping at straws at this point, but is there any chance that the cold timing advance solenoid might be misbehaving? Either something internally or something in the wire going to the solenoid, that could be making it activate when the pump's in a certain position? For that matter, could the solenoid (or the mechanism that the solenoid moved) apply partially, advancing the timing less than it's supposed to but more than if it weren't applied at all?

 

[IDIoit]

if thats the case, its an internal problem, and out of my hands....
ive only changed 1 IP, and taken off, and reinstalled another, i am not the man to accurately answer that.. perhaps one day!
just not TWODAY

 

[Clb]

The idle up solenoid is doing its thing, unfortunatlet I dont know about the internal....
Just a thought what about the temp sensor on that circuit?!
What if the idle up is working but the internal is not comunicating with the sensor!? They are both run off the same one?! Yes

 

[IDIoit]

The idle up solenoid is doing its thing, unfortunatlet I dont know about the internal....
Just a thought what about the temp sensor on that circuit?!
What if the idle up is working but the internal is not comunicating with the sensor!? They are both run off the same one?! Yes

from what i see, yes, and as you saw, that wiring is a little sketch. but it does get 12V until the switch shuts off.

 

[The Warden]

The idle up solenoid is doing its thing, unfortunatlet I dont know about the internal....
Just a thought what about the temp sensor on that circuit?!
What if the idle up is working but the internal is not comunicating with the sensor!? They are both run off the same one?! Yes

The power source for both the cold timing advance and the high idle solenoid both go through the same sending unit, so if the sending unit were misbehaving, you'd see it in both solenoids.For that matter, that would also mean that any short in the wire would manifest itself in both sides, so that may shoot down my idea of it being an electrical problem. Dumb question and it may have already been addressed, but you were timing it warm, right?

With that having been said, I've seen timing advance solenoids dealing wiht internal problems. The solenoid on my pump would sometimes stick itself "on" even with the wire disconnected and the engine at operating temperature. I had to give the top of the pump a few love taps to get it to unstick. My fuel shut-off solenoid was also sticky; sometimes I'd have to tap the top of the pump to get the engine to shut down ...I ended up replacing the top cover, which includes both solenoids...the replacement top cover and solenoids have been behaving.

I get the impression that either of these solenoids acting up is a very rare thing, but it's not completely unheard of...and, again, I'm not even sure if the timing advance solenoid can be stuck in a partial position or if it's "all-or'nothing". So, I could be barking up the wrong tree...but, might be worth looking at?

 

[BDCarrillo]

You had old Italian B-codes made in 1984 and remanufactured in 99. Most popped at 1650, one popped at 1400, and the one with a sliver of metal in it dribbled at 1100 psi. Other than that they appear to be in good shape.

On to the funky timing... did you put timing tape backwards on the harmonic balancer? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the filter outlet? Is the check valve on top of the pump operating correctly? I'd try putting a clear line on the pump return and verify it flows.

Thought behind that would be something goofed up with the IP return causing odd internal pressures, but I kinda doubt that would 'reverse' timing.

Another outside theory... you're testing too far up on the injector line.

 

[IDIoit]

timing tape?
we used the groove on the crank that was freshly clean for the probe....
hmmmmmm

 

[BDCarrillo]

timing tape?
we used the groove on the crank that was freshly clean for the probe....
hmmmmmm

Basically a sticker with timing marks, applied for easy reading. Even a slipped balancer shouldn't reverse the timing...