RTV & Break In

[jaluhn83]

1) If I decide to use RTV instead of the cork pan gasket what type should be used? The IH manual has a spec, but that doesn't help much.... I've been using permetek #2 for most things but am not sure if a non-hardening type would be correct or if a should use the ultra-blue or similar stuff that does harden.

2) Any recommendations for a break in procedure?

 

[79jasper]

You talking the oil pan?
If so, the cork gasket should never be used.
Al, gary, and lots others can break it down for ya.

But I think just black rtv gasket maker.

 

[stumiister]

I work on big trucks and I prefer using black or grey because it is more resistant to oil and heat, I have been using it on transmissions and rear diffs. since I have been working on trucks.
It was also recommened to me by this forum when I rebuilt my engine not to use the cork gasket beacuse it will leak over time. So I had used black rtv from permatex.
The key to using any silicone adhesive is to make sure the mating surfaces such as the engine block and oil pan are clean and dry there cannot be any foreign material such as old gasket material or silicone or there is a potential for a leak.
To this da m oil pan isnt leaking and I have about 10K on my rebuild.

 

[jaluhn83]

As in the hardening type stuff?

I hate how there's about 400 different types of RTV and it's never really clear which is the best for a particular use....

 

[79jasper]

Just normal black rtv gasket maker. May be called "ultra black."
You tighten it down some, let it cure for a bit, tighten some more, let it cure for 12-24, then do final torque. IIRC.
Same stuff I used on my diff covers also.

I think someone mentioned the "right stuff" gasket maker.
But I also thought we had a few threads talking about it.

 

[icanfixall]

I prefer the permatex ultra copper plus. Its the gold colored tube of rtv. Its oil resistant and a high temp material. Never ever have had a leak or any kind of failure useing that on gas or diesel engines in many years. What I feel is the absolute best is the Hylomar un the tubes. Its non harnening and if Rolls Royce thinks its great enough for their jet engines well its good enough for what we use. cleanlyness is very important. I use brakeclean and never use a rag to wipe it clean. A newly machined bore or head will pick up lint from the rag. Thats what happened on my rebuild. The only way I could remove the rag lint was a torch and burn it off. It worked fine. The cork gaskets were never a factory oem item and I really hate that some gasket maker is pushing them into our rebuild kits. The unsuspecting builder is talked into using them "just because they are in the box". The leak in no time and then your forced to pull the engine to do the right thing removing the gasket. If your really **** about the use of rtv apply a coat or bead to both sides of what your sealing. Then assemble. The oil pan is a metal to metal seal with rtv sandwished in between. It will work great just like what the factory used for years. Don't worry about the rtv thats on the inside of the pan and block. It wont peal off and plug your oil pump pickup screen. It will look and act just like the rtv on the outside of the pan and block. If your still worrying about it try to pull off any on the outside of the pan.

 

[riotwarrior]

As for the gasket or LACK of one and RTV,

I'd encourage what was said here!

Just normal black rtv gasket maker. May be called "ultra black."
You tighten it down some, let it cure for a bit, tighten some more, let it cure for 12-24, then do final torque. IIRC.
Same stuff I used on my diff covers also.

I think someone mentioned the "right stuff" gasket maker.
But I also thought we had a few threads talking about it.

Yes, yes we have talked rtv to death and we will continue to do so.

Pan and pan rail must, Must, MUST, be better than surgically clean. Remember that a body has antibodies to fight infection and when you get cut and leak fluid you heal!

An engine does not have self healing capabilities to stop a leak. Thus pan and rail must be clean. USE Brake clean, followed by a wipe with a LINT FREE clotch with Acetone, doing this ensures absolute clean. DON"T touch it to test if it's clean either!

3/16" bead all the way around just inside bolt holes, then you can go back and close up bolt holes with a semi circle if you like.

place pan on

install a few corner bolts and gently tighten then install rest till it's just oozing out a bit, let it cure as mentioned an hour or so, tighten down a bit more making it squeeze out a tad more, wait 24 hours do final torque!

That's my method when I can and am not rushing! I've never had a leak due to failure of RTV.

If there is even a smidgen of oil on pan or rail, that prevents RTV from making good contact with that spot and though it appears good, that spot will leak as it already has a broken seal oil will find that spot and continue to seep out forever!

Now lets talk break in,

First you have not provided any info on the situation.

NEW cam?
Bored and honed and new pistons?
ETC,

My take and it's expensive...but worth it! this is with fresh pistons in bored cyl and so forth essentially a reman engine!

20 minutes initial run time from first fire, drain oil and change filter.

500 miles, drain oil change filter

1500 miles drain n filter change

3000 miles drain n filter change, commence normal oil change intervals at this point!

This is just me, OCD and experience past.

Except for that first oil change all that old you use is perfect for tractors, and cars and other well run vehicles, that you may not worry about.

That first change is critical as its the initial flush of the engine post reman. Cut open filter if you can and look carefully at it before proceeding any further too. You may see something you don't like

As for how you break in,

light travel first 500 miles no extensive idling, no really hi rpm and little to no load

second phase 1500 miles light load and medium hiway speeds for short durations,

third phase 3000 miles medium - light heavy loads varying speeds some hiway some back roads always keep in mind to not run one RPM for long durations if possible

Engine is good to go and you can load ***** out of it and work like MO FO now!

JM2CW others experiences will dictate their responses,

Al

 

[icanfixall]

For a new bore and ring breakin you want a load on the engine. You must keep the rings and bore hot enough to burn off the oil on them. Now thats not saying you want it hot enough the overheat the engine coolant. What you don't want is easy driving around town never putting a load on the engine. A varnish will build up on the rings and bore. Then it will take many thousands of miles to seat and breaking the bores and rings. Constant acelleration and decelleration works best. Its like driving in first gear up to about 2800 rpm and letting off the throttle peddle down to about idle. The rings will seat much better and quicker working both sides of the rings. When your under power the top side of the rings are working. When you let off the power the back or bottom side now is working. Your wearing in both sides of the ring and the bore doing this. It can get boreing as hell but it works. Ever wonder how a big rig is broken in. They get right to work earning a job. Sometimes owners have been known to baby the breaking so much that the varnish builds up horribly to the point it needs to be machined off the bore. Now thats in extremes. An easy method to load up is fill the bed with about 1000 or 2000 lbs of anything and drive it everywhere. Find some grades and watch the gauges closely. Remember your working a new tight engine. Lots of friction working on the rings and bores that makes plenty of heat. These engines are designed to work and work hard for there living. They really earn what they get too.

 

[hesutton]

Permatex Ultra Copper is good stuff on the oil pan. Clean, clean, clean...... (as Al stated) on both surfaces. Put a generous bead of ultra copper on the block, and coat the pan. Marry them and once tight...... let it "cure" for a good 24 hours before putting oil in the engine.


Break in......... I'm of the load the engine school as well. I hooked up the 32 foot fifth wheel camper and hauled it 9 hours to Michigan, camped for a week, and hauled it another 9 hours home. The truck and camper weighed 16,720 on the CAT scales. EGT's stayed 700 or greater. Lots of RPM change with the travel through Kentucky with the Louisville traffic, and through Indy as well. Gonna give it another break in run to the rally on Friday.

I have roughly 5000 miles on the engine after the rebuild...... she needs about another 5000.


Heath

 

[typ4]

any of the ultra's will work great, my preference is grey, I have 100k on mine with zero leakage. I broke in my engine in by firing it up on a wednesday and loading a camper on and Jeep behind and going to wisconsin. it still does not use any oil in 4k change intervals, unless I use rotella, then it uses 2 qts.

 

[sle2115]

I'm with Russ and for a couple reasons...first and foremost, I've seen the tests Permatex runs on the Ultra Grey. It holds better than any others, although they are all close. Ultra Copper is designed to take higher heat, but has a lower adhesion. At any rate, as was said, any Ultra should work. As for break in, one of the best things you can do to seat a set of rings is find a long hill, go to the top of it with engine at operating temp, and put it in low or second gear and let the engine hold you back (within reason of course, don't exceed the governor RPM) don't need to spin it hard, its the back pressure that seats the rings. Hi-po engine builders do this on the dyno, but a hill works just as well. Make a couple passes, drive it some, and do it again here and there. Moly rings are hard to get sealed up, but hold up longer once seated, and this method is even recommended by many ring manufacturers. Just a trick of the trade.