Blue Smoke at cold idle, White smoke after descent/climb (air intrusion)

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
Hey all,

After many scattered posts in multiple threads trying to diagnose my issue, I decided to start my own thread.

Background: I bought a DOE van with 74k. Drive it 5 hours home and it smoked bluish on the way. Got better as I drove it. Vehicle now has 84k on it.

Issues: I am currently dealing with 2 fuel related.

1. Blue smoke at cold idle (first start) slight blue haze at warm idle intermittently. (Timing?)

2. Air intrusion/white smoke after long descent or after cresting a long hard pull when I let up on the accelerator.

What I have done:

1. ATF treatment (once). Lots of ATF type F with every fuel fill. I now just run summer blend Opti-Lube for lubricant.

2. I replaced the 3/8ths rubber hose from just before the mechanical fuel pump and all the way through to the injection pump.

What I was thinking of doing:

1. Another ATF Treatment, Hot Shots Secret Extreme Clean.

2. Put a 5 gallon can of diesel and run a hose to the suction side of my mechanical fuel pump. This would eliminate the factory steel lines and potential pin-holes on the sending unit in the tank. Indicate if my fuel pump (mechanical) is the source.

Notes: has good power, bleeding air results in really nice even revolutions. No knocks back through intake or other weird mechanical sounds. Uses almost ZERO oil. I believe the DOE idled this ALOT

Thanks for sticking with me!!
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
Sidebar:

Fuel Filter has been relocated to trans crossmember by DOE. I was treated to this

You must be registered for see images attach


The supply back to the IP is 1/4”. Replaced with 3/8th and I was able to climb a hill yesterday at 55mph in OD. Usually it was in D at 50 mph.

While not a huge difference I do feel a small power difference.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
Another side bar:

My return caps are 1/4” line. My injection pump return has 1/4” return fitting in it.

After reading, and only for peace of mind, I ran my IP return down stream of the injector return lines and “Tee’d” it into the factory 5/16th return line to the tank.
You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach
 

Black dawg

Registered User
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Posts
3,999
Reaction score
706
Location
sw mt
Sounds to me me like timing related injection pump problems. I would check timing, and use some power service diesel kleen heavily dosed for a couple tanks. Never have found atf to do much of anything.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
@Black dawg thanks for the reply. Will hit it hard with PS.

Do you think it’s worth my time to hook up a Jerry can and see if the air intrusion still persists?

Or I assume you think the two are related. Cold idle smoke and air intrusion?

Thanks!

I need to read up on timing, but too advanced or too retarded?
 

bumblebeer

Registered User
Joined
Feb 20, 2023
Posts
87
Reaction score
75
Location
ALABAMA
I agree with Black Dawg. Sounds like a timing issue. Most likely too retarded. If you don't have a timing device. You could try advancing the timing just a bit by rotating the IP towards the passenger fender. If that improves the situation, then you have found the problem.
 

Black dawg

Registered User
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Posts
3,999
Reaction score
706
Location
sw mt
Too retarded. As far as air, typically will get surging in power output, and engine sound will be all over the place.
 

bumblebeer

Registered User
Joined
Feb 20, 2023
Posts
87
Reaction score
75
Location
ALABAMA
A couple other things.

An even quicker test would be to energize the timing advance plunger once the engine is warm as long as you know that the timing advance actually works. It won't work at high rpm, but should advance it 2-3* at idle, enough that you should be able to tell if it helps any.

It sounds like you bought the vehicle with the fuel filter having been relocated? If it were me, I'd move it back to the factory location and reinstall the return line coming off the filter head. There are a lot of things that could be better about the fuel systems on these trucks, but the fuel filter is really a good design. The factory setup has the filter head as the highest spot in the fuel system, and the return line as the highest point in the filter head. That means any air you get in the system, assuming its not a huge amount, will collect in the filter head and be bled off through the return line instead of sent to the IP.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
@bumblebeer ill look into moving the filter back to its stock location.

This is a van, so a little more of a pain with its stock location. But I’m not against trying it.
 

bumblebeer

Registered User
Joined
Feb 20, 2023
Posts
87
Reaction score
75
Location
ALABAMA
@bumblebeer ill look into moving the filter back to its stock location.

This is a van, so a little more of a pain with its stock location. But I’m not against trying it.

Yeah, definitely less room to work in there. And just to be clear, I don't think moving the fuel filter will fix your problem, but may be something worth doing if you have the time. There was actually a Ford service bulletin about the check failing in that fitting, and a potential solution was to just plug that port. So it will for sure run fine without it, assuming there aren't any other issues.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
So, thinking my first plan of attack. Drive 13 miles from my house to top of Dallas Divide. 7500’-9000’. I am sure it will run fine, and be up to temp.

Then pull over, manually engage the timing advance and descend to Ridgway, 10 miles and 2000’ drop. I let it coast down the pass in direct for around 2-3 miles. It’s when I engage OD and step on the accelerator that the white smoke appears.
 

bumblebeer

Registered User
Joined
Feb 20, 2023
Posts
87
Reaction score
75
Location
ALABAMA
So, thinking my first plan of attack. Drive 13 miles from my house to top of Dallas Divide. 7500’-9000’. I am sure it will run fine, and be up to temp.

Then pull over, manually engage the timing advance and descend to Ridgway, 10 miles and 2000’ drop. I let it coast down the pass in direct for around 2-3 miles. It’s when I engage OD and step on the accelerator that the white smoke appears.

The timing advance solenoid is not designed to be used at speed and I would recommend against using it in the way you suggest. You should be able to notice a difference in haze at idle just by energizing the timing advance solenoid without needing to drive with it on.

After rereading your posts, I'm strongly convinced this is a retarded timing issue. It may be worth it to go ahead and advance the pump just a bit, bring it to a shop with an actual meter to be timed, or use this as an opportunity to get yourself a timing meter.

This may be more in-depth than you want to get, but I'll try to give an explanation on what I believe to be happening.

Compression combustion engines (diesels) do not rely on a fuel air ratio to operate like gasoline engines do. Although it's not the correct terminology, you could say that diesels run "lean" most of the time. Meaning that there is more than enough oxygen present to burn all the fuel that is injected. So to increase power, you simply increase fuel volume. You can do this until you get to the point where you are injecting more fuel than can be burned with the oxygen available. That's when you'd be looking at adding a turbo to force in more oxygen so you can combust a greater volume of fuel, but that's beside the point. Since a naturally aspirated engine like your 7.3 can only draw in a volume of air equal to its displacement, the amount of oxygen available for combustion is more or less fixed. There are some variable like atmospheric pressure, temperature, and compression leaks, but again beside the point. So with that in mind, when you step on the accelerator you are opening a metering valve in the IP and allowing more fuel to be injected. That creates more power and turns the engine faster until the engine speed levels out with the position of the metering valve (throttle) or you're bumping against the governor.

It's a fairly simple principle, but it gets a bit more complicated when you figure timing into the mix. The ip needs to create enough pressure to "pop" the injectors at a specific time (8.5* or 9.5* BTDC +-1.5*). Our idi's, with their precups, are fortunately forgiving with their timing. However, if you get too far out of spec in either direction you can expect similar results. Too far advanced can cause poor fuel vaporization resulting in incomplete combustion (smoke). Early combustion can also cause the engine to "work against itself" robbing power and economy. Too far retarded can cause poor fuel vaporization resulting in incomplete combustion (smoke). Very late injection can also result in there not being enough time left in the combustion stroke for all of the fuel to ignite resulting in a large quantity unburnt diesel being pushed out the exhaust.

Additionally, there is a mechanical "lag" of sorts from when fuel enters the IP to be pressurized, and when an injector's pintel actually gets unseated and allows fuel to be injected into the cylinder. As the volume of fuel being injected and engine speed increase this lag make a more and more significant difference. If this effect wan't compensated for, then as the fuel delivery and engine rpm increased, the timing would retard. To compensate for this lag and keep the engine in proper time as rpm increases, there is an internal mechanism in the IP that advances timing as the engine speed increases. This works as a function of ip housing pressure since the housing pressure rises when the increased engine speed causes the mechanical lift pump and the ip's internal vane pump to move faster and generate more pressure.

What's really important to note is that the injectors need to "pop" at the correct time to get complete and efficient combustion. Stepping on the accelerator causes the timing to become more retarded. The ip has a mechanism to counteract this, but it doesn't kick in until the engine speed actually catches up with accelerator position.

Knowing all of that can let you "read the smoke." Haze, or a small amount light blueish smoke means you are getting combustion, but it isn't as efficient as it should be. Maybe the fuel isn't being properly vaporized during injection, and it's robing some heat from the combustion stroke to fully vaporize the fuel. Dark blue or black smoke means the same thing, but that there is a greater volume of poorly combusted fuel. Either there is more fuel being injected than there is oxygen available to burn, or something with the combustion event (timing) is seriously off, or a combination of both. White or very light gray smoke, especially in larger volumes, means something with the combustion event is bad enough out of whack that all the fuel isn't being vaporized and you're pushing raw unburnt diesel out of the exhaust.

Applying this to your situation:
1. Blue smoke at cold idle (first start)
Pretty normal. These engines have a lot of slop in the rings. You probably aren't building good compression until the engine heats up and the rings expand to seal better. I reckon there is a small chance this could be caused by leak back or air intrusion, but I'd expect the smoke to be white in that case.

1. ... slight blue haze at warm idle intermittently. (Timing?)
This seems like more of an issue. Likely related to timing being too retarded. Over time the injector springs will compress and the ip will wear both causing the timing to become more retarded. I believe it is recommended to check and adjust timing every 30k.

2. Air intrusion/white smoke after long descent or after cresting a long hard pull when I let up on the accelerator.
This one is a little confusing. Seems like something that would normally happen with valve guide / seal issues. I'd just leave it be for now until you can get more info.

It’s when I engage OD and step on the accelerator that the white smoke appears.
This makes a lot more sense. From the above, probably overlong, explanation when you are at a low rpm and step on the accelerator hard your are increasing fueling and retarding timing. Normally it's not an issue but if you are already running too retarded, then this could push it far enough that she'll blow smoke until the rpms catch up with accelerator position. I would imagine there is more smoke if you do this going uphill?

There are simple diagnostic steps you can take with very little effort:

To check if drain back is causing the smoke on cold starts, put the transmission in park and parking brake on. Energize the cold idle advance plunger and make sure the fuel shutoff switch does NOT have power. Pop the hood and jump the started relay and turn the engine over for 15-20 seconds. Normally you would depress the Schroeder valve one the fuel filter head after this to see if it spits out air or diesel, but that won't work for you with the filter being where it is. So I'd just wait a minute and turn it over again. You can do this a couple of times, but be careful not to burn out your starter or drain your batteries. Then get back in the cab and start it like you normally would. If the smoke decreases and/or it runs better, then you have a leak back to tank issue. However, if it's more or less the same, then air likely isn't the problem.

A quick way to check for retarded timing. Once it warms up, i.e. the fast idle and timing advance switch off and the temp gauge is in the normal range (if it works factory gauges are pretty bad), take note of the smoke/haze coming from the exhaust. Then go back to the engine disconnect the fast idle plunger and apply 12v to the timing advance solenoid. If the smoke decreases and or it runs smoother then you likely just have a timing issue.

If it were me this is what I'd do:

1. Get it timed properly.

2. Test the injectors. Pop test and leak test. Replace them if needed.

3. Eliminate air intrusion and leak back as an issue. Tons of info here about that. Clear tubing will be your friend.

4. If all the above are done and it's still having problems, then compression and leakdown test. Then investigate what that turns up e.g. rings, valves, etc.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
@bumblebeer i cannot thank you enough. I do not have timing equipment and I leave 8/12 for SD.

I don’t think I have time to get the injectors pop tested/leak tested.

So how about advancing timing a dime width, drive it from there?

I will read up on the clear tubing. I can easily put a piece from the filter to the IP.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
I would imagine there is more smoke if you do this going uphill?
Regarding the air intrusion/white smoke, I get 2 scenarios when I can almost guarantee it will happen.

1. Long grade descent (more than a mile) where I’m never on the accelerator. It will produce smoke when I re-engage OD and lightly step on the pedal. If I get on it hard to actually accelerate it will buck a few times (misfire due to air?) but will accelerate fine. Only puffing white smoke on the “bucks”.

2. Long hard climbs where direct is a must. And will only climb at 40-50 mph due to being NA and high elevation. I can only push the foot-feet so hard otherwise it pukes black smoke. I stop at a very slight haze. ONLY when I crest the Mtn pass and let up on the throttle position, engage OD and come back up to the speed limit will it start bucking and emit white smoke in rhythm. Again I can step on it hard and get it to work the air out sooner.

Cliff Notes: While climbing the pass, no bucking or white smoke. When descending the pass, no bucking or white smoke.
 

Cant Write

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Posts
866
Reaction score
720
Location
Placerville CO
Regarding Compression: yesterday to bleed the air out of the system, I disabled the GP relay. 10 am, 70F, and it fired without the plugs on what fuel was in the IP. Been at least 2 weeks.

Just cold started it. 60F here. 1 cycle of GP’s and fired right off without hesitation. And this is the photo of exhaust.

You must be registered for see images attach
 

Forum statistics

Threads
91,284
Posts
1,129,796
Members
24,099
Latest member
IDIBronco86

Members online

Top