Hypermax vs banks turbo kits

[jay22day]

I'm picking up a '89 CCD. Originally from west Virginia, very clean truck. After i tow it 2hours home and get it running, It will be in dire need of having some life breathed into it . Its a non turbo 7.3 just a baby at 139,000 miles and i have two kits for it. An old Hypermaxx conventional turbo kit and a new style (TE06H) waste-gated banks turbo to mate with an old school aluminum "Banks Turbo" intake hat .

I have a banks kit on my truck and i'm leaning towards the banks just for the flashy-ness of the labeled intake (the body has alot of chrome "flare") and the pr ven numbers i've seen the banks put down.

If anyone has some info on these old hypermaxx kits (airesearch-garret turbos .96 A/r.70) im all ears i havent heard much about them...i think its just a "pulse" kit with a differed exhaust-flange/turbo-mount. exhaust inlet is single tube and pulse is dual(acts as the "y" pipe)

What would you pick?

Goal: performance and value

thanks everyone

 

[79jasper]

Several threads here talking about exactly that.

Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk

 

[jay22day]

The search bottom is my best friend and I didn't find anything took me a long time of research just to determin what the kit was and I wasn't able to find any info on the old hyper max. I've seen bunches of info on banks and ats 088 093 but the old hypermaxx has me stumped. Doesnt seem like it was very popular compared to the banks kit. I wonder if that's reflective of its performance. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[david85]

Besides, opinions and options may change over time, and new information come from more recent experience.

 

[PwrSmoke]

Well, the boost delivery method (the plumbing) is the least important aspect, it's the turbo characteristics you need to research. Are they both wastegated or not wastegated and if they are different, which do you prefer? If you don't have a preference, research the characteristics of each type. They each have plusses and minuses but both require that the turbo be matched to the engine and the driving situation, so you'll want to know if the turbos with the kits are still the ones chosen by the kit manufacturer and, if not, is the turbo correct for the application.

Another consideration...if you your engine isn't studded and you go with aggressive boost and fuel settings, the odds of your having to replace head gaskets are greatly increased... moreso if you work the truck hard. A recent thread on that topic brings this possibility to the forefront yet again.

IMO the best way to approach this is to exercise patience, teach yourself the technology and then make an educated choice. The worst approach is to do an internet poll (the "casino" method) and let other people's opinions make the choice for you.

 

[jay22day]

thanks for the reply pwrsmoke!

First is should say i am very experience with turbocharging. The hy35 (of the auto trans cummins) is one of my favorite turbos. I began studying, building and playing with boosted projects in highschool about 9 or 10 years ago when i got my first turbo sports car.

The hypermaxx is an airesearch turbo (they're a honeywell owned company (garret))
so the turbo is of quality design and performance. I believe size is correct for the kit as i listed the specs above.

The BANKS te06h's were made by garret as well. To my knowledge the banks will max at 16psi. IDK if the waste-gated turbos have higher pressure capabilities and thats why they put a gate on them, to control the boost.

I am curious if anyone has been able to push the banks turbos to higher than 16psi?

My biggest question is what kinda boost and CFM #'s does the hypermaxx (Airesearch) put down.

My questions actual comes from turbocharging experience, All turbos loose efficiency at a specific pressure/speed. Ive seen a gentleman on this forum push over 20psi out of an ATS witch is impressive. I haev not seen more than 16 out of a banks and i just havnt seen any hypermax conventional stats or dyno sheets......siiiiiiigh

My goal is simply to save this truck and make it better than it was before. I know the "casino" method is most likely frowned upon but im not building this truck for myself. I have a a setup i cant beat and love it.

I would like a general consensus as the goal is to save the truck, boost it, and sell it to some one who will love it and take care of it as much as i do my "93. If it was going to be my personal id put the banks on it for sure. The ascetic pleasing nature of the intake hat on the banks makes for a good selling point to a few people along with bank's great performance history.

Im not studding this engine or doing head work or head gasket. Seeing as the airesearch is non-waste-gated it probably wont outrun the trucks abilities or they would have waste-gated it.

 

[PwrSmoke]

Well, from the looks standpoint, I vote for the Banks. If this is something you will be selling, I'd install the mildest, safest, lowest boost setup. That way, the new owner gets no unhappy surprises down the road and doesn't have to burn you in effigy ( : < ) if the truck pops the head gaskets unexpectedly. A turbo will very quickly find a weak head gasket, a broken head bolt or a cracked head that had not yet become a problem for a NA truck. It was kinda different back when I installed the Banks on my truck in '87. It was practically a new truck then (7K miles) so I had high expectations. It took 22 years of towing and dyno tests to finally pop my heads (though I replaced the gaskets in '96 for external coolant seepage and used new head bolts at that time).

It's pretty unrealistic thinking about 16-20 psi boost pressures (and one assumes the fuel to go with that is part of the package because air doesn't make power) on an IDI without adding a lot more to the package (studs, intercooler a pump that can keep up with that much airflow, etc.). You can blow the heads off an IDI with just 10psi boost... which is what the non wastegated Banks kits were designed to do (not to blow heads off ( : < ) just to make around 10PSI). I also disagree with the premise that a turbo is wastegated to limit boost. I mean it is in one sense but non wastegated turbos are carefully selected and if that's done correctly, all is good, even though the low rpm performance may be a bit less snappy than a wastegated turbo. Wastegated turbos are common because they can deliver that lower rpm boost and off-line "snap" that people like. That's pretty hard to do with a non wastegated unit because, as you know, if you make it small enough to spool up fast at low speeds, then you can over boost at the high end and/or end up with excessive back/drive pressure (also true with wastegated units). Still, you have some leeway for mismatches with a wastegated unit because you can "tweak" the wastegate settings. Had some recent experience with a Cummins buildup on an engine dyno. The wrong size turbo really shows up quickly in one form or another. We had a wastegated turbo that was too small (it was an experiment) and we have drive pressure nearly 3-times boost and EGTs over 2000 degrees. On the other side, we had a non wastegated unit that was a little too big for the the other mods on the engine and you couldn't get the turbo to lite to save Christendom! And black smoke like you could NOT believe!.

 

[Agnem]

Wastegated turbos typically run higher EGT's even though they make a lot of boost. If you want good boost without high EGT's, you have to be willing to sacrifice some off the bottom end, unless you go with a ball bearing turbo like my Moose Boost unit.

 

[jay22day]

Thanks for the useful information mel!!!! as i understand your the guru around these parts

My experience up untill this point has been with gas turbo setups so non-waste-gated is new to me.
Do you have a preference? What causes the higher egts with the wastegated setup? i would think the better exhaust flow would help with temp. Is it simply the higher boost pressure causing the increase of temperature?

mel i have to ask cuz i do hear it a good bit as seen above by pwrsmoke.

Can pushing 10 psi or more with the kits made for these trucks really pop the headgaskets or worse? At what pressure or CFM does one start worrying about catastrophic failure? I would liek to stud my engine in the future and install if available a performance head gasket and pump to keep up with higher boost.

thanks for the help

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

The search bottom is my best friend and I didn't find anything

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?71170-Turbo-Option-Opinions

Wastegated turbos typically run higher EGT's even though they make a lot of boost. If you want good boost without high EGT's, you have to be willing to sacrifice some off the bottom end

this isn't the experience iv encountered.however no doubt your definition of "good" boost is more than likely different than mine too.
with chip truck i peak 14 psi (2 psi under what the po is asking about) with an intercooler and i just see 900-1000 peak egts with a maxed n/a ip with 0% smoke ,0% turbo lag and 17 mpg peak capability out of an 8k lb 4wd dually box truck.

 

[jay22day]

Thanks man much help!! very appreciated.

 

[PwrSmoke]

Thanks for the useful information mel!!!! as i understand your the guru around these parts

My experience up untill this point has been with gas turbo setups so non-waste-gated is new to me.
Do you have a preference? What causes the higher egts with the wastegated setup? i would think the better exhaust flow would help with temp. Is it simply the higher boost pressure causing the increase of temperature?

mel i have to ask cuz i do hear it a good bit as seen above by pwrsmoke.

Can pushing 10 psi or more with the kits made for these trucks really pop the headgaskets or worse? At what pressure or CFM does one start worrying about catastrophic failure? I would liek to stud my engine in the future and install if available a performance head gasket and pump to keep up with higher boost.

thanks for the help

EGTs are higher in wastegated turbos because they are small turbos and there is exhaust restriction. Drive side pressure will be higher and that usually comes with higher EGTs. That's where intercoolers come in, of course.

You betcha! 10 PSI can blow gaskets. You have to remember these henbanes were not designed as turbocharged units, so certain aspects of their design (pistons, bearings, oil cooler head design, etc) was cost matched to the application. If you research the difference between the turbo and non turbo IDI, you will see the things they updated... and that for an engine designed to make only about 8 psi boost. There are other things. The IDI engine doesn't respond as well to high boost as DI engines. Super high boost is somewhat counter productive from the combustion standpoint. Plus, IDI engines, especially those designed to be NA, have high compression ratios.. nearly 22:1. What happens to the dynamic compression when you add 50-100 percent more air to the cylinder? Cylinder heads in low synchronous orbit! Hence the need for improvements in the head gaskets and studs. At 10 psi, you have shaved a bunch of the safety factor off the engine but you haven't gone into the red. Dropping the CR isn't a good answer on an IDI either, at least for day-to-day operation, because it makes them very hard to cold start and you loose a fair bit of bottom end performance.. To some degree, you can compensate for these things but too much of a compression drop on an IDI makes them a bear as a daily driver. With IDI, you have to remember combustion takes place in that little Ricardo Comet combustion chamber, not on the top of the piston, as in a DI engine. For that reason, IDI engines are "slow burners" meaning their combustion process is slower than a DI engine and that limits what you can do with them. They have a sweet spot where it's counter productive, or not cost effective to go past.


Oh.. sorry, I hijacked this from Mell. Didn't notice you intended your question for him.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

You betcha! 10 PSI can blow gaskets.At 10 psi, you have shaved a bunch of the safety factor off the engine

we have millions of combined miles reported here alone on just this ones site idi diesel section to nullify these points.im sorry brother,iv got to disagree.

 

[PwrSmoke]

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?71170-Turbo-Option-Opinions



this isn't the experience iv encountered.however no doubt your definition of "good" boost is more than likely different than mine too.
with chip truck i peak 14 psi (2 psi under what the po is asking about) with an intercooler and i just see 900-1000 peak egts with a maxed n/a ip with 0% smoke ,0% turbo lag and 17 mpg peak capability out of an 8k lb 4wd dually box truck.

The intercooler saves you in this case. You didn't say, but I assume your turbo is wastegated. What's the drive pressure? If you were to compare a non-wastegated turbo with your same setup, you would see lower drive pressure (aka backpressure) and lower EGTs. The wastegated vs non wastegated thing is a matter of degree. A wastegated unit that's properly sized to the rest of the engine won't produce terminal EGTs but they will be higher than if the a properly sized non wastegated unit were installed. That may not be important, especially if the wastegated unit is the right one (a hundred or so degrees higher isn't a biggie in the overall scheme), but guys who tow and run at high engine loads for long periods value the lower EGTs.

My Banks, by the way, with a less restrictive exhaust system makes up to 14 psi in some conditions too. I don't work the truck hard for long periods any more so I haven't really observed the effects of that. I keep my fuel rate kind of on the low-smoke side. Having a little more air sometimes helps keep your EGTs lower too.

 

[jay22day]

Okay so consensus is faster spool with wastegated setups because of smaller exhaust housings and they get away with the smaller housing by using a gate on it. Result is higher egts because of restriction of small exhaust housing. simple enough right.

Most will probably think this is nuts but i wanna put it out there and see what everyone thinks. im considering pulling the non-gated system and putting it on another truck.

then taking 2 waste gated turbos. possibly TEO6H and runing a twin setup with boost controlers on the gates keep each at 7.5psi putting down the typical 15 psi of boost together that the non gated versions did alone.

this would allow for a true dual exhaust setup splitting exhaust flow and hopefully in turn keeping egts lower than even the non-gated turbo at 15psi

There for allowing for higher boost levels to be run?

thought

i swear im not