Hypermax vs banks turbo kits

[FORDF250HDXLT]

The intercooler saves you in this case. You didn't say, but I assume your turbo is wastegated. What's the drive pressure? If you were to compare a non-wastegated turbo with your same setup, you would see lower drive pressure (aka backpressure) and lower EGTs. The wastegated vs non wastegated thing is a matter of degree. A wastegated unit that's properly sized to the rest of the engine won't produce terminal EGTs but they will be higher than if the a properly sized non wastegated unit were installed. That may not be important, especially if the wastegated unit is the right one (a hundred or so degrees higher isn't a biggie in the overall scheme), but guys who tow and run at high engine loads for long periods value the lower EGTs.

My Banks, by the way, with a less restrictive exhaust system makes up to 14 psi in some conditions too. I don't work the truck hard for long periods any more so I haven't really observed the effects of that. I keep my fuel rate kind of on the low-smoke side. Having a little more air sometimes helps keep your EGTs lower too.

right for sure.that's why i added the intercooler before maxing my ip.i knew better than try to over fuel the engine and try and work the truck.
true as you may be about a non gated unit running cooler (iv no experience) 14 psi peaks and plenty of power for max gross (trucks and dump trailer full of green wood) is all i was after.with a wastegated unit,i keep off the line,instant n/a pull with no lag and can peak boost up the point where i would personally convert engines or require IMHO a different turbo,not sold in a kit,a larger ip,a cam and head studs.
since i didn't need that,i get to have my cake and eat it too with EGT's i can't even get out of control if i tried (and i have) with all the power i need,even under the more rare circumstance that rather than the chipper,iv got the dump trailer.and now with the bigger truck to use as well with 5.13 gearing,chip truck will hardly even need to see max gross even.with the same setup in log truck with 5.13's and high rpm's that truck doesn't stand a chance seeing high egt's lol.that ones got all the grunt she needs and then some,so it's just boosting 9.5-10 psi anyway.......but i still maxed it's ip and intercooled it for good measure. (i just didn't tweak the waste gate for anything.)
so really it's all in what your objective is for the truck and knowing your personal "cut off" point for the idi platform.

 

[PwrSmoke]

we have millions of combined miles reported here alone on just this ones site idi diesel section to nullify these points.im sorry brother,iv got to disagree.

Umm... I don't know exactly what you are reading but what's the number one engine problem you read about, here and elsewhere? It's head related and it's exacerbated by adding more air and fuel to an engine that wasn't designed for it. Physics and engineering limits won't be denied and can't be nullified! Adding a turbo to the mix takes away a big chunk of the safety factor the engineers built in to the NA engine. It all depends on the condition of the engine and how it's used whether a particular owner pushes his engine over the line. Again, look at the IDIT engine. What was one of the things they added to the mix... improved head gaskets. That and the other changes were make to maintain that 15-20% safety factor (a good average, I don't know exactly what IH used) engineers like to account for unforeseen conditions and situations. Things like stud kits exist because there is a very real need and, more importantly to the retailer, a strong market for them.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

Umm... I don't know exactly what you are reading but what's the number one engine problem you read about, here and elsewhere?

air intrustion,and other hard,no cold starts by a landslide.
i disagree with the rest of the comment,but that's ok brother.we can agree to disagree there.

edit,well ok.i see you've got the 6.9l.i wouldn't push that one up past 9-10 psi without head studs so perhaps we're not in total disagreement there after all either.i was purely thinking "7.3l" here,my bad.

 

[PwrSmoke]

air intrustion,and other hard,no cold starts by a landslide.
i disagree with the rest of the comment,but that's ok brother.we can agree to disagree there.

edit,well ok.i see you've got the 6.9l.i wouldn't push that one up past 9-10 psi without head studs so perhaps we're not in total disagreement there after all either.i was purely thinking "7.3l" here,my bad.

Certainly with a 6.9L and while the 7.3L is measurably better, IMO it's still a weak link. Less so if you use a modern head gasket, but probably safe for 10psi. I'm guilty of the same thing you were... thinking only of one engine. ( : < )

BUT by engine problem, I meant ENGINE mechanical, not ancillary or fuel system.

 

[jay22day]

The only physical differences im aware of with the turbo to non turbo motor is the harmonic balancer, exhaust valve material and tenser exhaust springs, slightly bigger wrist pin and a different piston. Honestly i tihnk your underestimating the non turbo engine. If they're aren't reports of blowing pistons up on non turbos i wouldnt sweat it. If you keep you egts and intake temps down, have studs and a good upgraded head gasket you should be able to keep her happy. The fact that these engines only rev around 3 grand works in there favor. Failure of over boosted engines often occur in the higher rpm range.

 

[PwrSmoke]

The only physical differences im aware of with the turbo to non turbo motor is the harmonic balancer, exhaust valve material and tenser exhaust springs, slightly bigger wrist pin and a different piston. Honestly i tihnk your underestimating the non turbo engine. If they're aren't reports of blowing pistons up on non turbos i wouldnt sweat it. If you keep you egts and intake temps down, have studs and a good upgraded head gasket you should be able to keep her happy. The fact that these engines only rev around 3 grand works in there favor. Failure of over boosted engines often occur in the higher rpm range.

Put a larger oil cooler bundle, keystone top and second rings and improved head gaskets on that list too. I have the book issued dealers that detail the changes.

You seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying. I didn't say a word about pistons, which, incidentally hold up pretty well. I am pointing out the weak links and design limitations, the head gaskets and head bolts topping the list. To me, if you can't work the modified engine at least as hard as you can work the OE engine, then you need to dial back the power output, or make mods, until you can. In other words, I want a 100% duty cycle, or as close to that as I can get with a reasonable expenditure of money. I contend that a stock engine at 250 hp/550 lbs-ft flywheel output (Banks kit rating @ 10psi with the appropriate fuel setting to match) is not capable of that duty cycle, though it's not too far off. My own experience more or less proves it (read below). If you stud the engine, then you are there IMO. Over 250 hp requires a substantial financial investment the closer you get to 300 hp flywheel. Ask Doc how much money he has in his rig that cranked out 210 on the dyno (somewhere near 280-300 flywheel) and he doesn't have stock head bolts and gaskets. So now you have context on my position.

When I pulled my engine down after 28 years of service with me, 27 of them with a Gen 1 Banks kit installed, I was very surprised at how well the lower end held up. Granted it was only 140K miles but 80K of that was ALL towing miles at 18-19,000 GCVWR and probably about 50 dyno tests. The bores had less than 0.001" taper and the pistons showed barely any stress (I gave them away as paperweights at the 2012 Meet... I got a free set of new standard pistons to use). Likewise, the bearings were reusable.. and that decree came from the bearing engineer at Federal Mogul who examined them (I got free parts for a magazine story I was doing). The cam, timing gear, oil pump, etc were all good and that's likely because I took good care of the truck.

The upper end wasn't so nice. I tore the engine down because I had a spectacular head gasket failure that actually stranded me in a blizzard (that's a long story). The head and block surfaces were fretted and eroded and you could tell there had been plenty of combustion leakage over time. Many of the head bolts were stretched (it's a 6.9L, 7/16 bolts) based on measurements of new bolts vs mine. The valves were in horrid shape and so were the rocker arms. The gaskets had been replaced in '96 because I had oil and coolant seepage and the FelPro gaskets I used at the time were the turbo spec gaskets (as I think they all basically are unless you use NOS stuff). I took better than average car of my truck and while I am the second owner, the truck had only 7K miles and less than a year with the first owner (who traded it back in because he couldn't drive 80 mph in it... diesel with 4.10s, yeah right).

I

 

[jay22day]

So you had done a head gasket on it prior to the failure that stranded you?

with the smaller head bolts and being stock lifting the head and stretching the bolts doesnt surprise me to much.

I only work with the 7.3 i have yet to run across a 6.9 and probably wouldnt boost one because of the smaller studs.

What did the poor condition valves and rockers look like? sloppy rockers? burnt valves? what was so bad about them?

 

[jay22day]

I saw another right up where the guy only got 8 psi out of the kit. i would expected at least 10psi.

 

[PwrSmoke]

So you had done a head gasket on it prior to the failure that stranded you?

with the smaller head bolts and being stock lifting the head and stretching the bolts doesnt surprise me to much.

I only work with the 7.3 i have yet to run across a 6.9 and probably wouldnt boost one because of the smaller studs.

What did the poor condition valves and rockers look like? sloppy rockers? burnt valves? what was so bad about them?

I replace the gaskets (I was once a dealer tech, a Ford tech, Porsche tech but mostly an England trained Land Rover tech) were replaced in '96 because of external seepage. It was a common problem and should have been fixed under warranty, as many were. Found that out a little to late to make the warranty. There wasn't enough sealer around some of the water holes so they seeped. Each end of the block as I recall, both sides. Just a drip now and again and green tracks down the block. No combustion leakage that I could see but at that time the engine only had about 50K on it and we had just gotten the big trailer (30 foot plus an overhead camper). I used new head bolts, which FelPro recommended.

The exhaust valves were very pitted and so were the seats. They were beginning to leak but handn't gotten so bad yet that you could feel a lope. The seats were worse than the valves (I had to replace the seats) but the valve tips were very badly galled and so were the rocker tips. The guides weren't horrible. I replaced the exhausts just because. Had to take a lot more off the head surfaces than I liked but with carefully getting the correct valve seat recession and the fact that the new head gasket was a little thicker than OE, all was fine (I considered those 0.010 destroked pistons). I used the new 7.3 style rockers and Powerstroke springs. All new valves, new exhaust seats.

 

[derjackistweg]

This is an interesting thread, though I would like to get back to the topic which turbo/ turbo setup to use.

Both can be bought right of the shelf. But what about the last 20 years of development in turbo technology? My guess is that there must be superior modern solutions to bring to an idi.

As there are kids for PS ones, of cause, as these have a running life cycle and idi DONT! So its obvious that there will not come a new manufactured bold on kid from banks/hypermax etc.

I don't think its practical to invest 2-3k into an idi for tuning- just to give more hp. its cheaper to swap an powerstroke instead. So an investment of 1000$ into just the turbo isn't it.

Though there are gt38r, that I heard of. A cheaper source is always coming if its from a popular model.

What about vgt turbos? how or are these compatible? vgt's are normally electronically controlled, which will be an concern with these idi injection pumps, right? though this would be a great benefit.


ps: a reason why the idi turbo option from ford came out with a minimal hp increase, was for sure the upcoming DI engines a year later! no industry would plan/ launch a successor with a total new technology IF it wouldn't be a BIG step! Ford would have stolen ist own Show if the DI hadn't had at least a huge number increase (hp, torque, mpg).
So decreasing the hp gain from the n/a to turbo idi was a marketing must and had nothing to do with technology. though if the idi had a future, ford/Navistar probably had to develop a more turbo like engine.

 

[jay22day]

the isntallation of a pwoerstroke vs a turbo install is night and day, your going to run into many issues and the cost is going to far exceed that of a turbo kit. IDK that that motor will even bolt up to the idi engine. The trucks i work on are what i would call "low miles" as this one has 128,000 and being a 89 is entering historical vehicle status here in my state.

If someone wanted a powerstroke they would just buy a OBS powerstroke instead of screwing around with trying to buy an engine and swap it.

The last kit i picked up for $325. people spend more on injection pumps hahahahah

I tinhk your missing the point a little so let me point this out, the kits are not very strong, because the engines weren't made/designed with boost in mind. Even the late stock boosted engines designed for forced induction are not made for high boost.

7-10 psi is normal 15 pushing it.

The point though is that for the cost of one reman injector for a POWERSTROKE i can buy an entire set of injectors for a IDI. That sir is a biiiiiiiiig difference in itself and the idi is all mechanical vs the electronically controlled powerstroke.

i appreciate the oppinion but motor swap is out of the question. Not sure how much experience you have with n/a trucks but Non-turbo vs turbo engines are night and day.

 

[derjackistweg]

the isntallation of a pwoerstroke vs a turbo install is night and day, your going to run into many issues and the cost is going to far exceed that of a turbo kit. IDK that that motor will even bolt up to the idi engine. The trucks i work on are what i would call "low miles" as this one has 128,000 and being a 89 is entering historical vehicle status here in my state.

If someone wanted a powerstroke they would just buy a OBS powerstroke instead of screwing around with trying to buy an engine and swap it.

The last kit i picked up for $325. people spend more on injection pumps hahahahah

I tinhk your missing the point a little so let me point this out, the kits are not very strong, because the engines weren't made/designed with boost in mind. Even the late stock boosted engines designed for forced induction are not made for high boost.

7-10 psi is normal 15 pushing it.

The point though is that for the cost of one reman injector for a POWERSTROKE i can buy an entire set of injectors for a IDI. That sir is a biiiiiiiiig difference in itself and the idi is all mechanical vs the electronically controlled powerstroke.

i appreciate the oppinion but motor swap is out of the question. Not sure how much experience you have with n/a trucks but Non-turbo vs turbo engines are night and day.

I am not discussing an engine swap! I am discussing the best way to turbo an idi.
If you can get me a source to by a, used, kid for 300 bugs, this would be great [emoji2]
otherwise these are to be bought from banks for 2600$ if I am correct. even bold on 2600$ is a lot on an old truck, like the idis.

for me it's different in addition, as I have one of 5(!!!) Quigley Vans in Germany. there is NO way to get an turboed one anywhere.

importing a banks set from the USA is expensive, as shipping is expensive! a banks set would cost me to get it home including tax etc roughly 3500$. that's a lot, right?
an old ambulance (though 2x4) can be found for 4-6.000us, here but probably less than 5 in an area of 1000 miles from my home. so swapping will be cheaper, as i can sell the rest of the donor vehicle.

back to the point: I also don't want to discuss boot pressure but better turbos. vgt, ballbearing, register setup are some points e.g.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

 

[jay22day]

Thanks man good stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Agnem]

Great conversations going, and please.... I'm not the only guru here by far! Listen to these other guys as well. A little disagreement helps point out issues that might not otherwise be discussed, as long as its all kept civil. That Banks literature is interesting. What isn't clear, and what they don't tell you is.... did they touch the IP at all when they swapped their turbo on? That's my suspicion. A turbo is good for 50 HP over NA, and the factory turbo offered only 10hp more than NA. This was due more to the calibration of the injection pump then the application of the turbo itself. If Banks swapped their turbo over, there would have been no HP change without turning up the fuel!