Diesel + Hydrogen = WHOooaaa!

[rhkcommander]

perpetual no, it consumes diesel AND water so how would that be perpetual?!

As for if I believe it helps or not, I am inbetween/leaning towards no. But I do want to try it. Running a second alt does rob performance, but if it could be made up by removing some inefficiency of diesel combustion then it works (I think someone before me wrote somthing similar )

 

[cetanefreek]

that's actually really good info Jim x 3, thanks!
rhkcommander, what you said seems to read a bit easier!

 

[BioFarmer93]

Wow... I swear that I did not intend to initiate such a poop-storm here. I am not selling anything to anyone, and I do not deny for a second that the marketplace is rife with HHO scammers selling dangerous junk to the unwary and making claims for their units that are electrochemically impossible based simply on the hardware they are using and Faraday’s maximum. This design is my own and is based on the works of many others, but like a computer’s technology the day after you get it home, is already obsolete. It is NOT a kit, it is a labor of love and took me nearly seven months to complete. The second alternator is the only variable in the equation that's value (or lack of) is yet to be determined. I already know first hand from the experience shared with three dedicated (two non-related) developers that HHO supplementation works quite well when powered with a vehicles existing alternator. My question was "Is there enough gain to justify the use of a dedicated power source?" There are subtleties involved in the process that contribute to the overall efficiency of operation that are easily (and usually) overlooked. Things like the fact that 33% of the gas produced is pure oxygen, the non-linear amount of resistance to rotation an alternator develops when producing 30A vs. 70A... Some would immediately say "Yeah, it's about 130% greater." They would be wrong, it's actually less than 50%. Another thing that is often overlooked is the rotating mass, or flywheel effect. We all know that it takes far more energy to start an object moving than it does to keep it moving, that's why electric motors pull so many amps at start up but hardly anything to keep running. The vehicles alternator is already spinning and when I turn the system on at idle I drop a hundred rpm, but if I chock the arm on the IP to hold a thousand rpm and walk back to the cab and flip the switch on, there isn’t any rpm change. At a thousand rpm the Zena (alt) is making almost 90amps.

To everyone that had kind and supportive words and congratulations to offer (and there were a lot of you) I say thank you very much for your support and taking the time to write. To those folks who are on the fence about it, I would encourage you to build a system for yourself and find out. To the nay-saying armchair physicists out there that claim that this is patently impossible I will say this; I didn’t post this to try and convince you of anything and I don’t know everything that is going on in this electro-mechanical-chemical transaction, but neither do you, so please don’t try to kid yourself and others that you do.

There was a request for build photos… I don’t really get the impression that this board is the right place to post them, but if you PM me I’ll email them to you along with anything else I can contribute. For those that are interested in watching a thorough and well documented build/installation/mileage test, I would encourage you to look up ‘Mars1952’ on Youtube. He has installed a system on his Powerstroke and is doing quite well with it despite the split shot injection and electronics.

Someone mentioned the effect of water vapor or steam as a contributory factor in the perceived performance improvement. Let me say this about that; all three of my bubblers are packed full of expanded mesh plastic dish scrubbers. No bubble of gas makes it intact through all of those and retains its water mist or fog. Water vapor (invisible) will of course make it through, just like when we drive in the rain. Does your engine perform noticeably better in the rain? No it doesn’t, but a water/alcohol injection system provides a mist and enough mass to affect the combustion properties.

What I mentioned earlier about my system already being obsolete is true. There is a movement by those that can afford it to use Nickel200 for the plates now, instead of 316L S.S.. This has caused the production efficiency to go up greatly, and when coupled with urea to modify the electrolyte, it goes up a great deal more.

When my plates are broken in and I complete the liters per minute measuring device I will post the results. When I obtain a translucent three gallon container suitable for diesel fuel and build a mount for it, I will cap off the lines to my selector valve and pump from and return to the test tank in the bed of the truck. I will have at least two EE’s with impeccable credentials with me as documentarians, videographers and witnesses. The results will be posted.

So, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump… “That’s all I got to say about that”

 

[WrickM]

good stuff! Hey just because i am a doubter doesn't mean i am not interested.

 

[DeepRoots]

hell I'm proud of ya Biofarmer. Thats a cool system.

Not my style and I have disagreements with the efficiency aspect, but still it's pretty interesting.

 

[BioFarmer93]

Awww, shux man.. It warnt nuthin...

 

[Sycostang67]

I dont see an extra alternator making that big an impact. One of the things I love about my truck is that I can run the A/C all day with out any change in mpg or noticeable reduction in power. My wifes jeep on the other hand loses 2-3 mpg and requires substantially more throttle to achieve the same rate of acceleration as without the A/C operating.

 

[jim x 3]

Wow... I swear that I did not intend to initiate such a poop-storm here.

Don't worry about that - its all good.

I for one am waiting to see your numbers. How will you measure your power output?

I reviewed your video again. Your workmanship is first rate. Good job. How do you meter the H2 gas into the engine? Does the amount introduced rise as you throttle up? What do you do with the O2 produced during electrolysis?

Regards,

 

[BioFarmer93]

Hey Jim,
Yeah, I'm really curious as to final result myself. I suppose the only true way to acurately measure power will be to buy some dyno time here at the local speed shop and do system-on, system-off runs.

The flow metering (as such that exists) is accomplished rather simplistically through alternator speed, up to an "all in" point where additional rpm makes no difference in output- about 1400-1500 rpm.

The oxygen is a co-product of the electrolysis. I have built what the industry calls a "common duct" electrolyzer where no effort is made to produce the hydrogen and oxygen in separate chambers or to separate them after production. The gasses are mixed as they are produced and both act in separate ways to enhance combustion. Hydrogen for flame propogation speed and oxygen to provide an elevated oxidizer component to the normal intake air.

-Gus

 

[FordGuy100]

1200 watts is the equivelant of 1.608hp.

So if his setup is taking 1.6hp to run his HHO system, we will need to know how much hydrogen it takes to make 1.6hp. Then we also have to factor in that he will introduce oxygen into the intake as well...which will help out as well.

 

[BioFarmer93]

Sycostang67- Exactly, the bigger the flywheel (engine) the lower the percentage of change in rpm for a specified (constant) drag component. Kind of like the old factories where they would have a HUGE (75hp!) steam engine chugging away spinning a massive flywheel with a wide rubberized canvas belt that transferred power to a central overhead shaft from which smaller belts descended to various workstations and tools requiring rotational energy. God help you if you hung a bit on a drill press, where now the drill press would just hum to a standstill, back then it would snap a bit faster than you could un-clutch the belt.

 

[jim x 3]

FYI, here is a good overview link with references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

Regards,

 

[jimmys f250]

Biofarmer I am behind you on this all the way,,,I to built one using an omni water filter housing from TSC ,,a plate setup that i got from ebay ,,, an elbow and a cap some ingenuity and a lil gorilla glue and some koh and distilled water and wahlah,,,lotsa gas,,,my ole hoss runs really good on it,,more power,,sounds like gasser now weith its strait pipe,,have never had fuel gauge so don't know bout mileage,,,just that it runs better and i also run used motor oil so i am happy,,,lotta people jus don't want to believe,,,good work bud

 

[WrickM]

Biofarmer I am behind you on this all the way,,,I to built one using an omni water filter housing from TSC ,,a plate setup that i got from ebay ,,, an elbow and a cap some ingenuity and a lil gorilla glue and some koh and distilled water and wahlah,,,lotsa gas,,,my ole hoss runs really good on it,,more power,,sounds like gasser now weith its strait pipe,,have never had fuel gauge so don't know bout mileage,,,just that it runs better and i also run used motor oil so i am happy,,,lotta people jus don't want to believe,,,good work bud

I hate that kinda comment. why would i not WANT to believe? do you think i enjoy paying for fuel. I'm certainly not wealthy enough to have money invested in oil companies. I just want to understand how it can *** why it does work. I mean EVERY impartial 3rd party review i finds says it doesn't and can't work. They give mathematical and physics based reasons. The only ones who say it does work give only anecdotal evidence. I want it to work and i applaud Biofarmer for making a kit that pushes the limits. I mean that thing is far and away the biggest/best i have seen. Still, i wanna see the number and understand the reasons behind things.

 

[jim x 3]

The flow metering (as such that exists) is accomplished rather simplistically through alternator speed, up to an "all in" point where additional rpm makes no difference in output- about 1400-1500 rpm.

Gus, If we have a production lag in the electrolysis, then the max gas production might lag the throttle-up diesel injection max. This could decrease any adiabatic enhancement due to the H2. A pressure gauge or flow meter would allow you to assess whether a lag exists.

The oxygen is a co-product of the electrolysis. I have built what the industry calls a "common duct" electrolyzer where no effort is made to produce the hydrogen and oxygen in separate chambers or to separate them after production. The gasses are mixed as they are produced and both act in separate ways to enhance combustion. Hydrogen for flame propogation speed and oxygen to provide an elevated oxidizer component to the normal intake air.

If we don't separate the H2 and O2, they will spontaneously recombine (in the reactor or piping) to form water and heat. This heat is energy the alternator took from the engine to split the water into H2 and O2. Depending upon the temperature and the time the 2 gases are in contact (before they enter the engine) we may be losing a substantial fraction of the H2. Has this been addressed by the "common duct" proponents?

Regards,