just wondering

[firehawk]

More doom and gloom. I have heard it all before. Let me set you at ease, if that is possible. First off, electronics are very reliable. As an example of electronics doom worries, people thought that when my daily driver 1st gen 300zx turbo came out, that it would have all kinds of problems with the electronics and the turbo. Well, 30 years later, no problems. I have many of these cars and worked on them for years. No issues with any of the electronic or turbo, other than the occasional failure. Everything works on my car, from the inflatable lumbar seat adjustments, the heated mirrors, digital dash, etc.

As for designed obsolescence and coding, still nothing to worry about. When you buy a vehicle, you own it outright. If there was coding that would make a part fail after a designated time, the companies would be open to HUGE liabilities. This is just conspiracy theory nonsense. And for the coding, every new car of any interest has its computer cracked within year. I do on my own tuning via laptop on a wide variety of cars. If I want to disable the emission device, its just a few clicks away. Have a problem with the car? Log data and find the cause. Computers are great and are nothing to fear.

 

[ToughOldFord]

But the facts don't support that, computer control has been around long enough to show us it's not just a theory. Cars from the 80's, 90's, &2Ks are not lasting as long as cars from the 50's, 60's, and 70's.
Where they can, (no question you can find high mileage computer controlled cars), but like pointed out earlier it costs more to repair them and keep them on the road than they are worth.

For example, some years ago a friend of mine had a 72 Malibu. The transmission went out, after thirty years of use and abuse that makes sense. Local transmission shop replaced it for $450 installed.

Not too long later a gal I knew had the transmission in her Taurus go out. Not only did it last half as long as the Malibu's transmission, but the shop wanted $2,200 to replace it and a 15 year old Taurus isn't worth $2,200 so off to the wrecking yard it went. No question there is planned obsolescence, car makers make money off of selling cars, governments get rich off the taxes. The state of California would make a lot more money off of me if I buy a $40,000 truck vs a $2,000 truck so they do everything they can to pull all the old trucks off the road to limit my options.

The truck shops we deal with in both Oregon and California tell us gone are the days of 750K-1 million miles out of a semi truck, with all the computer and emission equipment a rig is pretty much used up @ 500-600K.

Destroying the environment in the name of saving it.

More doom and gloom. I have heard it all before. Let me set you at ease, if that is possible. First off, electronics are very reliable. As an example of electronics doom worries, people thought that when my daily driver 1st gen 300zx turbo came out, that it would have all kinds of problems with the electronics and the turbo. Well, 30 years later, no problems. I have many of these cars and worked on them for years. No issues with any of the electronic or turbo, other than the occasional failure. Everything works on my car, from the inflatable lumbar seat adjustments, the heated mirrors, digital dash, etc.

As for designed obsolescence and coding, still nothing to worry about. When you buy a vehicle, you own it outright. If there was coding that would make a part fail after a designated time, the companies would be open to HUGE liabilities. This is just conspiracy theory nonsense. And for the coding, every new car of any interest has its computer cracked within year. I do on my own tuning via laptop on a wide variety of cars. If I want to disable the emission device, its just a few clicks away. Have a problem with the car? Log data and find the cause. Computers are great and are nothing to fear.

 

[FordGuy100]

I will always have the old Ford. But eventually parts will become harder to find, more and more will become obsolete from Ford...and we all know how crappy aftermarket stuff is. I remember a few years ago when there was a run on injectors, as it seemed like production was going to cease (or at least slow down for a long time). Using a computer to diagnose issues is just the new way of mechanic'ing (not talking about the guys who hook up a scanner then just start throwing parts at it). Number 5 glow plug is out on my 6.0...how nice is it to know that?

Newer vehicles are more finiky, no doubt. Fuel quality has to be better, lubrication better, etc. My bet is over the course of its life it will cost more than one of these old trucks, thats just the nature of the beast. So then it boils down to if the added convinience is worth it for the extra money over the long run. Thats just up to the owner.

Older doesn't necessarily mean it will last longer. Anybody remember the book "Death of a Salesman"? In it he was bragging about how his old Chevy (30's?) had 80,000 miles on it, or something like that.

Probably the nicest thing about the new trucks is the fact that it takes an hour and you can have the cab off. Talk about easy access to anything drivetrain related. I remember the hoopla over that on the new trucks "You have to pull the cab for everything!"

 

[G. Mann]

The people who control manufacturing and sales have whole departments that study how to guide, steer, and force people to buy new and throw away what they bought. Cars and trucks, Ipods, computers, home appliances, you name it.. it's part of the industry that supplies us, and controls us.. I don't like being controlled, I bet most here don't. I like running my own ship.

Every clear headed scientist predicts we will have a large sunspot solar flair that causes an Electro Magnetic Pulse on the same scale of the one in about 1886 that melted all the telegraph lines and anything with wire in it. Other scientists predict a small air blast nuke at 5 miles up which will produce an EMP that will shut down anything electrical for a radius of 500 miles [or more]. Much the size as what is predicted Iran is now building and could deploy from a junk freighter ship 12 miles off shore.. Should either of those events happen, Imagine the effect on all these fancy electronic computer shifting, computer controlled cars and trucks.. they would stop where they are, period.. total failure.. same for fuel pumps at your corner gas station, you bank, etc etc.. We live in a very vulnerable place relying only on tiny vulnerable microchips which are so sensitive the static electricity from your polyester shirt will fry them...

I'll stick with my fleet of IDI equipment. All manual shift, so I can push it off a hill and bump start if if I have to.. Run it on used oil and survive while others starve. And, no, I won't tow your Prius or Volt... but the truck will push it off the road if it blocks it.. "Have a nice day"...

BTW, my new retirement health care plan is to die in the coming revolution... To harsh?

 

[93blklightning]

Myself, I'm not afraid of electronics like the guy a few posts up said , what ****** me off is not being able to work on, or afford to work on my vehicles . A vehicle I bought and paid for , has to go back to the dealer to be scanned or requires parts only available from a dealer , who runs a monopoly on said parts and elects how much profit he will make off me

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[FordGuy100]

They dont need to go back to a dealer, or get dealer sourced parts (unless its an extremely new platform, usually within a year you can get other sources of parts). That scan can literally save hours by not chasing dead end self diagnoses. Maybe for the guy who doesnt work on his own stuff, but then those are the types that sell their vehicle just inside/outside of the warranty period. I dont think its any harder working on the new stuff than it is the old stuff, minus having more crap in the way to get to components.

 

[ToughOldFord]

Myself, I'm not afraid of electronics like the guy a few posts up said , what ****** me off is not being able to work on, or afford to work on my vehicles . A vehicle I bought and paid for , has to go back to the dealer to be scanned or requires parts only available from a dealer , who runs a monopoly on said parts and elects how much profit he will make off me

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

That's exactly correct, that's an old accusation that's thrown around a lot, that people that don't like computer control must not understand it or are afraid of it. That's bunk, I myself have been working with and on computers since the '80s. And automotive computers are easy to understand because it doesn't matter if it's a 1910 Ford or a 2010 Ford the principles of the internal combustion engine have not changed. Compression, fuel, ignition, the mechanics or computers just tell when the fuel and ignition are introduced to the process.

I work on all vehicles, new and old, big and small, nothing about an engine frightens me, if I do not understand something it becomes a new challenge. If man built it, man can fix it.

It's my understanding of computer control and watching the real-world results that tells me it shouldn't belong in a control of a moving vehicle.

You know, it could be the guys that like computer control are the ones that are afraid, afraid to not have a computer tell them what is wrong with the car. Afraid to use mechanical knowledge and experience to diagnose, repair, and tune a car. Might be a thought there.

 

[1466IH]

I have not worked on too many newer vehichles but I have notice a change in eqipment. The days of rebuilding components is slowly fading. You no longer rebuild a hydraulic pump or track motor but simply remove the old one and install a reman. This has its upsides and downsides. I is a lot quicker meaning less downtime to just swap out a component than rebuild it but on the other hand it is usually quite a bit cheaper to rebuild than replace. Back in the day you at least had the option to rebuild or replace. I know that the same has happened in automotive slightly but i dont know if it is to the same extent. I know you used to be able to rebuild a wheel cylinder or master cylinder but the last time i asked for a rebuild kit on a master cyl there was nothing available

 

[firehawk]

It's my understanding of computer control and watching the real-world results that tells me it shouldn't belong in a control of a moving vehicle.

You know, it could be the guys that like computer control are the ones that are afraid, afraid to not have a computer tell them what is wrong with the car. Afraid to use mechanical knowledge and experience to diagnose, repair, and tune a car. Might be a thought there.

Your posts in this thread are so misinformed and erroneous, that I must correct them.

In your example with the transmission (an obvious straw man argument), was it a computer related failure? No, I don't think so. Also, you picked a car with known transmission problems, and gave no information to miles. Years mean nothing, it is the milage and how it was used that matter.

Let me speak for what I copied from your last post. I have found that people who know computer controlled cars know most of what you need to do on a car other than setting points and making carb adjustments. I have found that people who don't know about computer controlled cars seem to have no interest in learning something new and make excuses to validate that action.

Newer vehicles are far more fuel efficient than older ones, and the savings over time will often far exceed any extra cost in parts. I still have my idi cause its paid for and sees only 10k a year. That, and I like it.

 

[ToughOldFord]

Your posts in this thread are so misinformed and erroneous, that I must correct them.


I wasn't specifically speaking to computer control with that example, I was addressing planned obsolescence, and known or not is irrelevant.

Your posts in this thread are so misinformed and erroneous, that I must correct them.

In your example with the transmission (an obvious straw man argument), was it a computer related failure? No, I don't think so. Also, you picked a car with known transmission problems, and gave no information to miles. Years mean nothing, it is the milage and how it was used that matter.

Let me speak for what I copied from your last post. I have found that people who know computer controlled cars know most of what you need to do on a car other than setting points and making carb adjustments. I have found that people who don't know about computer controlled cars seem to have no interest in learning something new and make excuses to validate that action.

Newer vehicles are far more fuel efficient than older ones, and the savings over time will often far exceed any extra cost in parts. I still have my idi cause its paid for and sees only 10k a year. That, and I like it.

 

[riotwarrior]

Your posts in this thread are so misinformed and erroneous, that I must correct them.

....

Hmm...I'm thinking that as soon as you wrote that....anything you said was completely irreverent, as whom are you to tell another person that their post is misinformed and erroneous and that YOU must correct them?

By stating this you have completely removed your credibility in what you say.

Play nice boys....

tis just a discussion on stuff....


I'm all for computers and computer control, however I"M NOT all for Big brothers peeking in on my life where I go have gone and when and how fast. That's my business.

I'm all for non computer control for the simplicity of doing diagnosis...simple engine suck squeeze bang blow...don't matter how that is controlled be it carb MFI or EFI it's all the same but the cost of diagnosing newer and newer is sky rocketing beyond what small shops can handle.

Me, I'm old school and bout most fancy schmancy electronic whizbang tool I got...OBD II reader...nothing fancy, no ABS no SRS no nothing fancy, read the damn code n move on...if I can't...better take it somewhere else cause the cost to benefit is not worth the investment in fancy tools for a few cars I may see that need them.

Carbs now...well that's a different story...

Bottom line, the new don't last like the old...the new is cheaper to run due to fuel mileage but more costly when all effs up..

Old cost more to run...but cheap to repair almost anywhere...

both have merrit...it's the individual that decides with their $$$$ what they want.

 

[93blklightning]

Well I'll put it like this ....I also own a 2000 Toyota Tundra , not really new at all. But she went down a couple of weeks ago , so I hooked her up and run the scanner . No codes . Make a long story short . Come to find out the fuel pump was bad, shorted out and fried the plugin. So I went and bought a fuel pump. Good luck finding a harness . All the local parts stores said dealer only . Well I prepared myself for a ****** and went to the local dealer. Guess what ....they didn't have a clue what I was talking about . So after three days of waiting for them to look, and my brother in law going down there to keep them motivated . They find one ....last one.....last one in the country . $165.00 . I said to hell with that and made one . Then I got thinking , especially when I was running the scanner on her .....damn I'm glad this isn't a '13 model . Mainly because I noticed while I was scanning the truck that the newest vehicles their scanner would scan was an '08. That just reinforces my rant .

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[OLDBULL8]

My question is. as ridiculous as it may seem, would it be worth it, or would there be a market for a new type of vehicle, one that does have some computer controlled systems, but made for the customer. Of course you can have it serviced at the dealer, but it could also be easily maintained by the owner after the warranty is gone. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but wouldn't it be nice if something "new and improved" really is, and not just a dealer only item, and disposable after the new one comes out.

That was the original question. My answer is a big NO.
In this day and age with all the EPA regulations, clean air act and such it's impossible.
All of us on all these forums, are here to find out how to fix problems on old or the new cars and trucks. Some have mechanical abilities, some have the experience to instruct, some own a vehicle and try to get answers, some don't know how even if you took there hand and showed them, but credit is do to them for trying and want to learn. Then there is the millions of people that have never seen what's under the hood, they turn the key on and if it don't start, it's a tow to the dealer, those are the dealers cream of the crop.

 

[93blklightning]

As bad as I hate to admit it , your right . The mentality of the average person isn't very bright. And it sucks for all of us who don't wish to sign away 4-5 years of our life to avoid fixing our own problem

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[opusd2]

Well, no matter what, owning our older vehicles aren't exactly what make truck companies or dealers their profits. And no matter how efficient or clean we run, the gov't makes it more difficult for us everyday. And the quality of diesel isn't exactly getting better either. So I guess drive your IDI for whatever reason you choose since our reasons why differ as much as our opinions.