Won't start - week batteries

[fields_mj]

Been dealing with this for a little while now. I have an oil leak somewhere at the rear of the engine. I've never had it fixed because of the cost associated with pulling the engine to get to it. The leak finds its way down to my starter, and so my starters only last 12 to 18 months. I generally get them off ebay for under $100, so I figure I can go through a lot of them before I equal the cost of fixing the leak. Given the trucks age and condition, I'm never sure if I have another year left in it or not anyway....

I digress. Short version of the problem. My truck won't start. Won't turn over fast enough. Brand new starter (put on last night). Previous starter showed same problems and was also brand new (less than 1 week) but suffered a premature mechanical failure. Had batteries checked last week. One is really good (830 cca), the other is questionable but they still call it good (780cca). Been watching the battery gauge during start up for the last week. Every day it gets a little lower while the GPs are heating up. Now it barely registers while they are on, and when they shut off, I only come up a little bit. While the truck is running, the meter is at the same place it always is. While running at idle (50~1000 rpm), if I put a volt meter between 2 battery terminals, I get a little over 14 volts. I clean the battery terminals (both halves on both poles on both batteries) every time I disconnect them. Installed a brand new + battery cable a month ago.

My drive too and from work is 35 to 40 min each way. Last night I drove 40 min from work to pick the kids up from daycare. Starter had mechanical failure at start up, so I had to have a pull start at the daycare. From there I drove to the parts store and left it running for 15 min while I was inside trying to get another starter. They still hadn't replaced the stock, so I was out of luck on that one. Drove 15 miles (hwy) up to see my mechanic about a fuel leak, but he wasn't home. Drove 15mi back to town, and went over to Autozone to see if they had a starter in stock, which they did. Idled another 15 min in their parking lot, and then 2 miles to the house before shutting it down. So the truck ran for 40 min, was off for 30 min or so, and then ran for another 2 hours before shutting down. One would think the batteries would have a pretty good charge by that point. Got home, got the kids inside, let the dogs out and such, changed cloths and went to work on the truck. Took 2 hours to swap out the starter including clean up, a few interruptions with the kids, and some time spent on the battery connections checking for any possible problems. New starter worked, but had a hard time turning the engine over with any RPM. Battery gauge was hardly registering. Didn't bother putting a meter on the batteries. It was getting late (9:30) and I needed to get inside to get the kids ready for bed. So I grabbed the charger, set it at 12 amps, and hooked it up to the passenger side battery connections. Left it hooked up all night. This morning (6:30 - 9 hrs of charging at 12 amps) I bumped it up to 75 amps before I hopped in the truck. When I turned the key, the battery gauge barely moved. After several seconds, the GPs kicked off and the gauge came up just a tad. Engine would turn over, but just like the night before. RPMs were very slow and couldn't start.

Thoughts on where to look? I have a couple of ideas, but since 9hrs on the charger had absolutely no impact, I'm not convinced that my ideas are relevant.

Thanks in advance,
Mark

 

[laserjock]

Check your cables. They do corrode internally and can go bad. Check and make sure the connections are good and tight (wire to terminal). They can loosen up and leave a bad connection. It could be the crossover wire from one battery to the other so you may just try a heavy jumper cable from right to left hot post and see if that makes a difference. Can do the same thing with the wire from the battery to the starter if you are careful as a quick check of it. Check the grounds too. If they get corroded, they can cause problems.

That's where I would start.

 

[79jasper]

When you check the connections, ground the voltmeter somewhere good, then check the voltages at the post, and the Lug. That's how I found mine. Can do it on the grounds also.
When you load test the batteries, were they isolated?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[OLDBULL8]

Battery Testing can be done in more than one way. The most accurate method is measurement of specific gravity and battery voltage. To measure specific gravity buy a temperature compensating hydrometer, to measure voltage use a digital D.C. Voltmeter. A quality load tester may be a good purchase if you need to test sealed batteries.

For any of these methods, you must first fully charge the battery and then remove the surface charge. If the battery has been sitting at least several hours (I prefer at least 12 hours) you may begin testing. To remove surface charge the battery must be discharged for several minutes. Using a headlight (high beam) will do the trick. After turning off the light you are ready to test the battery.


State of Charge Specific Gravity Voltage
12V 6V
100%1.265 12.7 6.3
75% 1.225 12.4 6.2
50% 1.190 12.2 6.1
25% 1.155 12.0 6.0
Discharged 1.120 11.9 6.0

Load testing is yet another way of testing a battery. Load test removes amps from a battery much like starting an engine would. A load tester can be purchased at most auto parts stores. Some battery companies label their battery with the amp load for testing. This number is usually 1/2 of the CCA rating. For instance, a 500CCA battery would load test at 250 amps for 15 seconds. A load test can only be performed if the battery is near or at full charge.

The results of your testing should be as follows:

Hydrometer readings should not vary more than .05 differences between cells.

Digital Voltmeters should read as the voltage is shown in this document. The sealed AGM and Gel-Cell battery voltage (full charged) will be slightly higher in the 12.8 to 12.9 ranges. If you have voltage readings in the 10.5 volts range on a charged battery, that typically indicates a shorted cell.

If you have a maintenance free wet cell, the only ways to test are voltmeter and load test. Any of the maintenance free type batteries that have a built in hydrometer(black/green window) will tell you the condition of 1 cell of 6. You may get a good reading from 1 cell but have a problem with other cells in the battery.

 

[fields_mj]

Okay, here's a longer version of the story.

The positive battery cable was purchased brand new, and was installed last month while I was changing out the starter. All of my terminal clamps are molded onto the cable. No chance for that part of the connection to come loose. That's true for both the positive leads as well as the grounds. On my previous cable, I had to make some emergency repairs and used a clamp style connection for the positive clamp on the passenger side. Of course my temporary repair stayed in place for about 3 years cause I'm a tight ***. On multiple occasions the truck would fail to start, fail to even engage the starter, and I would have to pull my "repair" apart, clean the corrosion out, and clamp it all back down. I've looked/cleaned/and otherwise played with the battery connections as much as possible, and it's not making any difference. They cables are all clean and clamped firmly to the clean battery terminals.

I believe the batteries themselves are in decent shape. Last month the starter went south on me. I kept trying to start the truck (like a rookie), and got the batteries so low that the starter eventually got stuck and would not disengage. At which point I frantically grabbed wrenches, a pry bar, and a hammer, popped the hood and started disconnecting the old positive leads from both batteries. Probably should have pulled it from the bendix instead, but I didn't take that long to think about it. I picked a plan and executed it. By the time I got both batteries disconnected, the starter was smoking pretty good... I bought the batteries from Advance Auto, and they were still under warrantee. So I took got on-line, found that they had a starter AND they had a 20% off discount code, so I purchased the starter and had the neighbor haul me, the old starter, and the batteries down to the store. The batteries were drained, so I left them there so that they could charge them and then load test them. In the mean time I went home and put the new starter on the truck. When my wife got home in the afternoon, I took her car back to the store to get the batteries. Both batteries are rated at 850CCA. The report that they generated indicated that after charging one battery was just over 830CCA, and the other was just over 780CCA. Not saying that they know how to test the batteries correctly, or that the batteries are good. Just repeating the facts as best I know them. Got home, put the batteries in, and the truck started right up like I would expect it to. The starter gave decent RPMs. Not quite as fast as I normally expect out of a new starter, but faster than what a normal used (but still working) starter does.

That was Thursday (had to call off work). Fast forward to Sunday. Walk out the door to go to church, an the truck won't start. Much like today. Just can't get the RPMs. I had a class to teach, and I was going to have to miss the service as I had funeral to attend a few counties over, so I didn't take time to do any trouble shooting. My son and I got in my wife's car, and I sent her a txt saying that we were taking it to church because the truck wouldn't start. By the time I got back from the funeral, it was around 4pm. Changed clothes and started working on the truck. Grabbed my Fluke first, and measured my battery voltage with everything connected. 12.6V. Disconnected both batteries and measured them separately, and one of them was down around 11.2 V. Cleaned some corrosion off one of the new positive battery clamps/terminals with a wire brush (cleaned all the others too). Put it all back together and tried to start the truck. As I watched the battery gauge, I noticed that the GP either never turned on, or they never turned off. No pulsing of the gauge, and no clicking from the controller. I have a manual bypass wired in, so I pushed the by pass in and watched the gauge drop. After 5 or 6 sec, I hit the starter and the truck fired up. I let it idle for about 45 min to charge the batteries back up.

Since Sunday, I have paid extra close attention to the battery gauge while starting. Every time I started it, the gauge would be a little lower than the time before despite my 40 min trips too and from work. Last night, when I left work, the truck made a wired grinding noise when it started. When I went to start it again at the daycare, I could hear the bendix pull in, but the starter did nothing. I only tried this a few times as I didn't want to run the batteries down any further. I put the truck in neutral, and popped the hood. Used a screw driver to short the bendix to make sure that it wasn't the culprit. No response from the starter. Called my neighbor to have him come and give me a pull start. Made the trip that I described in my OP. When I pulled this starter off, the main body had turned some, twisting the long external bolts that presumably hold it all together. Got the new starter installed, battery connections cleaned and reconnected. Tried to start the truck. Started turned over, but slowly. This had been happening with the previous starter before it failed.

Over the course of the last week, the starter RPM has been going down gradually. Since Sunday, I've also been watching the voltage go down during starting also. It's now to the point that even without the GPs cycling, it's a lot lower than what I would normally see while the starter is cranking.

Once the truck is running, the battery gauge reads at the same place that it always has. I would think that this means the alternator is working correctly. Also, since our Tach basically works by measuring the output from the alternator, and since I haven't seen a drop in my RPMs at a given road speed, all of this would point to the alternator still being good correct? I've had them go bad on a gasser before, but never on a diesel. Since we don't have the normal ignition system, I'm not sure what symptoms to look for on the Alternator.

So, if the batteries are okay (once they charge back up), and the battery connections are okay, and the starter is okay, and the alternator is okay, what else could there be? Am I missing a piece somewhere?

Thanks again,
Mark

 

[laserjock]

Let me take a couple bites here.

11.2 is way too low on an unloaded battery. See Bill's post above on voltages.

Tach reads an AC voltage signal from a sensor. No bearing on the alternator.

I'm not convinced you don't have a weak battery but load testing it should have revealed that. Honestly I think it did at the parts store and they don't want to warranty it but I'm no expert there.

So you changed the cable to the starter. Presumably that's good. What about the cable between the batteries. That would cause one to not charge properly and not give you the juice it should on start-up.

Sorry if I missed something in the reading.

 

[fields_mj]

First let me say that I don't mean for any of my responses to have any kind of negative tone to them. I'm very grateful for everyone's thoughts and suggestions. Just want to make sure that my frustration with my circumstance doesn't come across as being ungrateful.

I agree that the 11V range is too low. I also agree that that specific battery is on its way out, but it's been that way for a few months without any change (I had it tested early summer also), so I don't know that it's currently the weakest link in my chain of problems. It will need attended too though, and it's not helping my situation any. If I can get the truck running correctly again, then I can make the argument that it's not taking the correct charge as a reason to get it replaced under warrantee. Also, last week when I took the batteries in for testing, they both took a good charge (over 12.5 V). That's why I don't think this battery is causing my current problem. It's lack of charge may be why I can't start, but since it took a good charge last week, the question is why didn't it take a good charge during my 2 hours of driving yesterday afternoon/evening.

The new positive cable is all one piece just like the original factory cable. It runs from the Driver's side, along the top of the radiator, to the passenger side battery where there is a molded on cross clamp, and then down to the starter. From the cross clamp are 2 additional leads, the heavier of which goes to the Bendix, and the lighter also goes down to the starter. The battery clamps aren't as thick and heavy as the original factory ones, but they are a lead alloy, and they are molded onto the cable with heat shrink buried in the lead. The other ends of the cables also have heat shrink. I don't recall if they crimp on, or if they are also molded to he cable.

At this point I'm wondering if one of my ground cables has a bad connection on the other end. Aside from the one battery being bad, its the only thing I can think of that would cause one battery to maintain a good charge while the other one does not. Looks like NAPA has both ground cables for around $20, so it looks like I'll be getting covered in grease and oil again tonight.

 

[riotwarrior]

First a load test may indicate a battery is OK yer in real world conditions it isnt.

You have clearly done your homework yet I see one thing you are missing and that is the one battery is weaker than the other. You see it document it but miss it.

Like a 1000 gal tank thats full and one more thats 3/4 full with say a pipe between them with valves. Open the valves between the tanks and the full one flows into the less full one till they balance out and are equal.

Bottom line from what I am reading batteries are likely the culprit. The weak one draws down the good one constantly thus killing it too.

Two new batteries or borrow two known good ones to test theory.

Static voltage of batteries when charged and izolated sjould be within 0.1 volt of one another.

One thing that is not mentioned is cable sizes. Your replacement + cable is what size? Ground cables are they original or replacements also what size?

Also one thing I do myself in a dual bat setup like ours is take a small 4ga ground cable a d tie both bat neg together just like our pos cable does. The theory for me is the common ground tied between the two batteries and removes differential in current flow from neg to block from block to neg...both bats in essence are one in harmony....this works for me. I still have the two block groundz as well.

So let us know cable sizes and if grou ds are old or new.

For me it was not untill I replaced cables batteries and starter that I got spin...

BTW what starter are you running?

 

[snicklas]

I agree with above, it is more than likely the batteries.

Wish I was closer, I have 2 almost new batteries in my truck, could swap them out to yours for a test. But, I live on the other side of Indy...... and Brazil is a bit from even the closest I get.... (I work downtown Indy)....... but I think its the batteries. With a diesel, when they even start to get questionable, they are done. With my truck (a 6.0 is a power hog!!!!) once they start to get weak, they won't start the truck. I've gotten to the point, if I have to jump the truck twice because of an old, faltering battery they get replaced. But, this is the vehicle that Momma and the kids normally have, and I am not going to leave them stranded because of a battery, plus I run the Interstate Economy Batteries, and 2 batteries out the door is less that $100..... so cheap insurance for me........

 

[jhenegh]

1 new good battery should start this thing on a 60 degree day. But those days are quickly going away. When I'm working on my truck I often times just throw 1 back in to test stuff or something.

 

[fields_mj]

I don't disagree that it's a battery issue. I just hate to put a new battery in it only to have it damaged by something else. I'll see if it starts when I get home. Been sitting on the charger all day. If not, I'll isolate the batteries and see what their voltages are. If one of them still has close to 12.5 volts, I'll swap their locations and see what happens. If it's a bad grounding cable, the truck should at least try to start. If all the cables and connections are good, and the one battery is just shot, then swapping locations shouldn't have any effect at all. Unfortunately I don't really have another battery to swap out or borrow. I'm not convinced 0that borrowing would really help anyway. It took 4 days to go from 2 fully charged batteries to having starting problems. I think I would need to put a different battery in and run it for a few days before I really knew if the battery was the problem or not.

Not sure what size the cables are. The grounds are factory stock. Never been changed. The ones that I'm looking for at NAPA are 4ga. The old positive cable was also factory stock. I bought a replacement from Oreilly's a few years back that was supposed to be OEM spec. Been sitting still in the box since then. Just put it on in mid Aug. The cable appears to be the same size as the factory stock one, but I have no idea if the jackets are thicker/thinner on one vs the other.

Same lack of knowledge on my starter. The ones that I would buy off ebay had all the specs listed in the listing. The one's that I've bought locally don't have squat listed for the spec. It's just what the computer says fits my truck. I will say that the starter on it now does not have the cone on the nose despite the fact that the pic on the box, and the pic on the guys computer screen showed one with the cone. First replacement that I've put on that didn't have the cone, but it was the only one in the county available at 7pm yesterday, so I didn't have much room to negotiate. I believe the very first starter that I took off the truck didn't have a cone either. I seem to remember being worried that the cone version wouldn't fit for some reason, but obviously it did.

 

[sjwelds]

There seems to be a common conception that the ground cables are not as important as the positives. To me they are of equal importance. Without a good, positive ground (no pun intended) you are unable to complete a circuit. And bad ground can cause all sorts of weird issues.

You say you have replaced the positive cables. Well and good. How are you deducing that the ground cables are not in need of the same replacement action?

Just curious. Not trying to flame anybody.

As riotwarrior would say "JM2CW"

 

[OLDBULL8]

Since you've never messed with or cleaned the negative battery connections on the engine, do that first. Voltage flows from positive to negative, current flows from negative to positive. Since a starter draws anywhere from 500 to 850 amps to get the engine turned over the first revolution, a good/clean negative cable connection to the engine is imparitive, of course along with positive connections.
If you would check the voltage on the battery that checks lower voltage right after a start (disconnected from the other battery) I'm sure that it would check about 10 VDC maybe even lower. Check each cell with a hydrometer, with even a cheap $2 one. Refer to the above chart.

As Riot said, quote

Bottom line from what I am reading batteries are likely the culprit. The weak one draws down the good one constantly thus killing it too.

After the engine has started, the Alt. will charge the BAD battery as much as it can, it takes ~20 miles of driving to put back in the amount of current that the starter has drawn out from just a normal quick start.

Disconnect and leave disconnected the lower voltage battery, charge up the good battery, the truck should start on just that one battery, even after a GP cycle.
You seem to be in denial that you don't have a bad battery.

I may be wrong, don't think so.

 

[laserjock]

Okay. New pos cables. Great. Ground is suspect. Take a jumper cable and clip it to the block and the neg post. Or even better the starter. It's a quick diagnostic. Can do it to either battery or both or one at a time pretty quick. Disable the Gp controller so you aren't creaming the batteries with the gp's and melting the gp's down.

I suspect if the battery is not grounded well, it won't charge or provide the juice it should.

 

[riotwarrior]

4 gua ground cables are insuffecient IMHO factory are 2 IIRC.

factory Pos cable between bats 2 ought and 3 ought from pass side bat to starter...

If one battery is toast you should replace BOTH or likely toast the new single one too by coupling it to a suspect ok one.

Yes its pricey but working correctly every day isnt free.