Starting issues after solenoid relay replaced

[WrightWay]

Appreciate all the input, I'll try to recap this thread.

Truck had 380K miles with good maintenance and likely little DIY work. Owner (friend) passed. It then sat for 5-6 years in a barn before I got it in 2012 - Truck was a pro, myself a novice. In the 60K miles I have put on it, I have replaced batteries, starter once, starter relay once, key lock cyclinder once, gps, gp controller once and wired the clutch switch to work. No other wiring changes in starting system. All starting issues were 'minor' and easy to fix.
In last month it has had intermittent no start/no crank issues, work well then all of sudden no crank, after running well and starting all spring. I would have full dash lights and gps but no starter engagement. Wait awhile, do nothing, it may start...and then start 20 more times before an issue.

I changed the starter relay, then I had no dash lights or gps, and no crank. Changed ignition switch and got dash lights and gps back but no starter. Big Bart has been walking me thru some testing.
12V on wire from battery to top post starter relay and relay clicks and starter engages and will start. Put multimeter (yes I have one) on wire from ignition switch to relay (top terminal) and reading is very low. Ignition switch not powering up starter relay? Getting 12V at each battery with multimeter

Things that appear to work are:
Both batteries
Glow plugs and controller
Starter relay
Starter
Wires from relay to starter

Let me know if I'm thinking right but appears that next step is to take this ignition switch back off, with wires plugged in the back, and move pin manually to see if it starts.

If so I need a different ignition switch- (salvage yard) or Motocraft, the armature between key cylinder and switch is worn, or need new key lock cylinder. ??
Let me know if I'm thinking straight, Ive gotten a bit confused several times on this thread.

I'm hoping not to have to try to get to armature between lock cylinder and ignition switch as that looked like no fun.

 

[hacked89]

Multimeter on small wire from ignition switch to relay, helper turns key to run, you say very low voltage.. Voltage with key off is 0 correct, voltage with key on is what exactly? Define really low. If it's not 12v trace the wires back and it's something along that path or the ignition switch. If all other positions work for you except for "run" you can wire a push button start if you didnt want to replace the ignition switch.

 

[WrightWay]

I am unskilled with multimeter and my helper has to be bribed, but yes with good ground, multimeter set to 20V, and the key to run, the reading is zero. Same as when key is off.

I will confirm this on Monday after trace/check of this wire as far as possible, and if OK, take off ignition switch and move pin to run and repost. No able to work on it this weekend

 

[TNBrett]

What is it with the key in the start position?

 

[WrightWay]

With helper turning key to run or start position, the reading was zero.

 

[Big Bart]

Andy,

I am on vacation or would be responding a little faster. So glad folks have jumped in to speed this along.

One thing, if you put 12v positive to the small bottom post (Has a nut on it) what happens? If it starts the soleniod went in upside down. One small post is to energize the soleniod, the other is supposed to get power when the soleniod is engaged. Just a guess as to why the new soleniod does not work.

1) One issue to check is when the key is in the start position do you get 12v positive to the small red wire that goes on the top post of soleniod. (It does not sound as if you do.) If not the ignition switch, clutch safety switch, or wiring has a issue. You should get power to that red wire with clutch in and key in start position. So start at the ignition switch, does the wire going to the clutch safety have power when in the start position? Do both sides of the clutch safety switch have power when the key is on start and the clutch is depressed? If so then there is a issue from the clutch safety to the starter soleniod.

2) Send a pic of the top of your starter, perhaps in 92 TNBrett is correct. If you have a big red wire and that smaller wire both going to the starter,if so that black/red wire is big enough. Perhaps on some newer years there is a starter soleniod for the on starter, starter soleniod. (Which is counter productive.) On my 1988 I am pretty sure it is not the case. Mine I believe powers the starter directly. But from a pic of the connections on top of your starter we can tell. Most starters have a soleniod on the starter, Ford for years put them remotely on the fender well. Maybe it was a Navistar thing and some years they just kept the fender soleniod for consistencey accross models. Now when you fast forward, Ford has switched it up, my 2007 F-150 has it on the starter.

3) If putting power to the bottom post does not work you need to return the starter soleniod, it should not just click, it should start the truck. To Seladoor’s point just make sure the screws that hold it on the fender well are tight so it has a good ground.

 

[WrightWay]

We all need vacations, taking the weekend off here. Been good to have others help also

the new relay was on correctly, sure of that, only mounts one way on this truck. Old relay is on the fender now (3 terminals) and is working.

1) yes not getting 12V at red wire to top post of relay, zero, so I'll investigate Monday and repost after confirming that, checking wiring, and testing clutch switch and ignition switch by removing and moving pin.

2) At starter I have a large battery cable sized wire and the smaller red wire coming in, so I think TNBrett is correct, the red/black wire in question from starter relay is probably as it should be. I'll send a photo Monday

3) Yes the starter relay I bought is going back. It did not do what it was supposed to in testing, put old one on and truck will start- leaving that area alone now...
The screw that was questions is tight and always was. The connection to fender is solid. It is actually a SS threaded bolt that happened to fit the fender clip I had to use there due to metal loss.

 

[Big Bart]

Great!

Once you track down where the issue on the starter wire is you will be in good shape.

Regards,

Bradd

 

[Selahdoor]

Got to say, you are doing good at sorting out the varied advice, and figuring out what actually applies to your situation.

For this particular testing that multimeter is slightly more advanced than a light. Instead of watching for a light, you are watching for numbers.

I have a 92 NA, as well. I should have looked at mine before giving advice. That small wire going down to the starter only feeds the ACTUAL starter solenoid that is on the starter.

~~~

Now, to fix what looks like the final problem...

Yes, you'll need to trace that wire back to the ignition switch. But before you do that, OR go taking the ignition switch back off...

Find the wire where it goes into the switch. Test it right there for voltage. A simple test light poked into the wire, will suffice. Poke the light into the wire, then turn the ignition to start. (Find a really good ground for the tool, whether you are using a multimeter or a light. TEST this ground, before you use the tool for any test. Connect it to ground, then touch the light to any known good 12v source. If you can't be sure of any ground you find up under there, run a wire all the way out to the battery ground terminal, and use that for your test ground.)

If you get nothing, you have two options. You can continue and maybe eventually have to take the column apart to have to replace a rod or something... (Because it may be hardware linkage problems going to the switch, and not the switch itself.)

Or, (because everything else now seems to work.), you can just install a start button.

To install a start button, you would just install a momentary on button somewhere on the dash. (Get one that will take 40 amps, just because...) Run fused power to one side of the button. Then run the other side of the button to that small terminal on the solenoid/relay. (40 amp switch. They have some pretty small ones now. And 30 amp fuse.)

 

[TNBrett]

I’ve never seen an IDI with an older Ford style starter. I’m not going to claim to know for certain, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

My suspicion at this point is that the clutch switch is to blame. Even a new switch can be problematic. It’s easy enough to troubleshoot. Disconnect the connector from the clutch switch and place a jumper wire between the two terminals with the red wires with blue stripes. Then try starting the truck, if it works the switch is bad, or needs to be shimmed. If it doesn’t, it’s a convenient place to test the ignition switch too. One of the two red w/ blue wires should have 12v when in the start position. The other goes directly to the starter relay on the fender.

My clutch switch started acting up like that and I fixed it in just a couple of minutes.

You must be registered for see images attach

The grey discs were cut from a 5 gallon bucket lid with a hole saw. I then cut a slit in them, and was able to slip them behind the switch without disassembling anything. Two discs got everything working for me.

 

[Big Bart]

TN Brett,

I think you mis understood me, was not suggesting I have a standard Ford gasser starter. My starter is a very large starter. Just assumed like all the other Fords I have owned (First diesel.) the starter soleniod was powering the starter, not another soleniod. That like most full size fords of the past the soleniod was remote on the fender well. What surprises me is that these go out so often being low amperage.

I am traveling in Greece so I Looked up starters for a 88’, all have a soleniod on the starter. My starter soleniod cable however is much thicker than Andy’s, may have been replaced. Assumed it was for powering the starter itself. But Now realize you are correct.

Guessing here but Ford could keep wiring harness consistency between gassers and diesels by using the factory soleniod to power the Navistar starter soleniod on a diesel. They could have used a relay if amperage was an issue. Also probably could of made a low amperage soleniod on the starter. But doing it this odd way allows more consistency between gas and diesel models.

So I was incorrect.

 

[TNBrett]

No worries buddy. I think you are probably spot on with Ford keeping the starter relay on the fender because that’s how it had been for so long with the gas trucks. It was the engineering equivalent of “copy and paste” of the day.

With regard to how often the starter relays fail, I think it has more to do with how many times they make and break contact, rather than how much load they see. Every time the contacts inside make contact and then break, there is a small arc, and eventually they become burned. Think of it as a large set of points in an old distributor. As the contacts start to become burned, the failure becomes inevitable because resistance increases in the contacts and the arcing gets worse with every cycle.

This leads me to the next thing. The starter solenoid (mounted to the starter) has to draw more amps, because the starter motor draws more amps. It’s harder for the starter solenoid to break contact than to make contact. If you think about it, it wouldn’t take much force to push two small pieces of metal together so that they touch. But once you’re passing several hundred amps through those two pieces, they can try to weld themselves together when you try to push them apart. To ensure that contact is broken effectively, a large return spring is used. The more current that has to be broken, the stronger that spring has to be. So now the coil inside the solenoid has to overcome that spring in order to make contact. As a starter motor is scaled up, everything gets bigger. Not only are the windings bigger, but the dive gear gets more robust. The drive gear is under more torque so the return spring for it has to be stronger to make sure the gear retracts when it’s supposed to. The starter solenoid has to overpower that spring as well. So, to make all that happen reliably, you end up with a solenoid that draws upwards of 30 amps.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Just assumed like all the other Fords I have owned (First diesel.) the starter soleniod was powering the starter, not another soleniod.

From what I've seen and heard, 429's and 460's also used a fender mounted solenoid and one mounted on the starter itself.

 

[Big Bart]

To me I think of it as a gasser starter is pulling 200-300amps for a second or two then, evens out to 100-150 amps, which is much more amps crossing the solenoid points than our diesel primary solenoids on the fender well.

So I would expect a diesel primary soleniod jumping to 50-60 amps and evening out to 20-30 amps to last much longer. To your point burn the contacts less. But they seem to frequently fail.

I had a 1995 F-150 gasser for many years, never replaced the starter soleniod. I used it twice as much as my diesel. I have a Tug tractor with a straight six Ford. Never have had a issue. Had friends with similar vintage F-150’s, don’t recall them having issues. But this issue comes up frequently here. I too have had to replace on my 88’ diesel.

Maybe it’s the style of soleniod does not like light amperage. Or perhaps because it takes often longer in the cold to start them they burn the contacts more.

 

[WrightWay]

Pictures of starter wiring on this 92. large starter with solenoid, large red wire direct from battery I assume, and the red wire in question from the starter relay