smoke on idle

[metrobruce]

getting horrid smoke on idle with w90 mix, any more petrol and it shows signs of vapour lock. the engine in question is a peugeot 1.5 tud5 unit which is idi, I have been trying to find some info on getting wmo to burn efficiently, the threads I have found are on the PSN forum and I have found no information regarding advancing the timing to help with the burn time that is specific to IDI tuning for wmo. I will be experimenting with advancing the timing tomorow, have any of you guys used different injector pressures, delivery rates and different nozzels with wmo, has this made any real world gains. I have noticed when running on 100% wmo and w90 the smoke is just the same so any alterations that improve my smoke problem will work for 100% wmo, also the diesel clatter has gone, I plan to advance the timing until I get the same amount of diesel clatter that was there when on diesel fuel. It seems to me that the slower burn rate has had the effect of retarding the point of injection resulting in the grey smoke.

if anyone has any info to share I would be greatfull.

 

[Josh Carmack]

Some folks advance the timing, I don't know that their smoke decreases, but they do claim better economy and easier starts. but I don't think you'll get the diesel knock back because no matter the timing, the shock wave is less intense because of the burn rate, not because of the injection angle.

What are you considering as signs of vapor lock, and where is enough heat in the fuel system to cause the fuel to flash?

 

[metrobruce]

I have a looped return with a filter on the loop and the standard heated filter on the supply feed into the loop, I was running 100% wmo and its been ok, as soon as I thin the oil with RUG it gets symptoms of fuel starvation, exactly the opposite to what I would expect, I have had simular problems when trying wmo/RUG blends in a vw transporter too that was at mixes of around 25%. I think the main issue is within the loop itself, as the petrol evapourates, it causes bubbles and the vapour has nowhere to escape. In the morning it starts poor, I expect this especialy if the temps are below 0*c but there is the need for the use of the glow plugs every time I start the car, in my other cars I have always been in search of more power and the pump timing has always been tweeked to cope with the extra fuel delivery. The vw transporter that I owned had a cold start lever that advanced the timing when cold so advancing will probably be the answer.

It is hard to find answers surrounding WMO but it seems that it needs different approaches to get it to run well when comparing to wvo. The heating side of things is similar but thats about it, I am wondering if a set of oil specific injector nozzels and optimised injector pressures would help with the set up or even raising the compression further than 23.5:1, this might speed up the burn time .

 

[Josh Carmack]

I have found that using diesel as the cutting agent reduced my smoke drastically. Compared to RUG.
For my Mercedes, 25% is the sweet spot, for my truck it doesn't matter, i't gonna smoke like it's on fire no matter what fuel it is on.
I don't know what your fuel prices are doing over there, but over here, diesel has dropped85 cents in the last two months, and rug has dropped over a dollar in the last couple months. If it gets down below 2.00 I plan on filling up four drums, maybe more, to stockpile it.

 

[metrobruce]

timing has helped hell of alot, it is set at the maximum advance that is available without moving the pump hub a few degrees on the tapered shaft, I am still getting the vapour lock symptoms once warm but I will be trying thinning the oil with kero/parafin in the next mix. fuel prices are £1.14 for petrol and £1.20 for diesel which is averaging around £5 for a us galon $7.81 a bit more diesel knock is noticable as well as black smoke instead of white grey, the pump has been modified so that is to be expected

 

[Brad S.]

Bruce, have you tried using any of the diesel cleaners, as a thinner or anti smoke additive.
Over here Power Service has a product called diesel kleen, and there are others.
Like you mentioned adding something besides RUG and then add a splash of a "cleaner"....???
With your vapour lock, maybe the fuel lines are smaller compared to the IDI pickups we drive, and if things are compact in
the engine compartment. Warm fuel is not all bad during the winter, but in this case maybe not.
Just thinking out loud.

 

[Josh Carmack]

It's my opinion, it's not vapor lock, but I have NO CLUE, about any part of the design in that vehicle you mention, I was unaware of it's mere existence before you told what type of vehicle it is.
Pure gasoline has to get pretty darn hot at 100 percent to cause vapor locking, and it typically happens on vehicle where the incoming fuel line was placed too close to and exhaust port or it had cooling issues. Unless you have a section of fuel line that can get close too or abov boiling I don't think it would happen.

However, I have read that looped returns can exacerbate air intrusion issues due to the fact that the air never gets discharged back into the tank via the return.
Have you bled the loop while the engine is running to ensure it's not an air issue? It could be that the faster moving thinner mix can entrain air bubbles, while slower moving thicker mixes don't move fast enough to entrain bubbles and therefore they don't make it to the injection pump as fast or at all.

 

[metrobruce]

I am now trying a different mix and the timing advance set more appropriately for the slower burn of oil, I am now running 20% parafin/kerosene and have no smoke issues anymore or any air ingress. what I found with the petrol mixtures that I was running was that it was like air was getting into the system, my theory is that when I add RUG and the mix hits the heated filter and the petrol begins to form small bubbles in the mixture. I tryed to bleed the system again and what I found was a build up of pressurised air in the return loop but it smelt like petrol vapour. the fuel system consists of a bosch ve fuel pump, single stage injectors at stock pressures(135bar), a non return valve on the feed, a heated filter on the feed into the loop and a filter on the loop its self

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, the blue car was rotten so I transplanted the engine into the red one. I will get some pics of what the completed system looks like soon, I am thinking of putting a return line to the tank with a three way valve so that I can switch to a full return when bleeding the filters an also plumb the injector spill pipis int the return and always feet them back to the tank

 

[The FNG]

Too far advanced can be just as bad as not far enough. It can be really difficult to time the IDI's and to be completely honest the "by the ear" trick really does not work. The width of an average coin is more than a few degrees timing. I would get the proper timing meter and just go a few degrees advanced of stock. You may need to go to a qualified mechanic to get this done, but it would be worth it. Also, I find that when my truck is smoking or shaking, I have some amount of coking (carbon build-up) on the injectors. I took my truck on a nice long 6 hour drive into the mountains this weekend and it all cleared up. WMO is not nice to those who use on short drives. I also put a double dose of injector cleaner in each tank that I fill up with (0.66 oz/gallon).

One other thing I want to put out there: If you have issues with your car, do not expect them to get better when using WMO. Usually it will go the other direction on you very quickly.

 

[metrobruce]

Too far advanced can be just as bad as not far enough. It can be really difficult to time the IDI's and to be completely honest the "by the ear" trick really does not work. The width of an average coin is more than a few degrees timing. I would get the proper timing meter and just go a few degrees advanced of stock. You may need to go to a qualified mechanic to get this done, but it would be worth it. Also, I find that when my truck is smoking or shaking, I have some amount of coking (carbon build-up) on the injectors. I took my truck on a nice long 6 hour drive into the mountains this weekend and it all cleared up. WMO is not nice to those who use on short drives. I also put a double dose of injector cleaner in each tank that I fill up with (0.66 oz/gallon).

One other thing I want to put out there: If you have issues with your car, do not expect them to get better when using WMO. Usually it will go the other direction on you very quickly.

I am a fully qualified mechanic, I did time the pump up to stock parameters but the pump is far from standard oem, its a hybrid made from 3 different bosch ve fuel pumps, it has an 11mm pump head from a landrover pump, a ford transit DI cam plate for extra lift and the internal throttle lever is ford transit too, the pump body is peugeot. I have done a hell of a lot of trial and error with tuning the bosch VE fuel pump and have built up a small reputation within my town for being able to fix fuel pumps and I have a friend who is an old hand when it comes to diesels. As you can see it would be hard to not tune a pump by ear that is made from the parts that I have carefully selected as there is no information surrounding my setup, but I do have a dial gauge adapter for setting the lift on the plunger if I was doing a stock setup. The hub on the fuel pump allows for some advance, but in its stock position I have run out of adjustment so I have marked the hub relevent to the input shaft and mooved the hub a few degrees advanced to gain some more control as it was just set to maximum with no where to experiment, having done some experiments with the timing (by ear) it is apparent that the slower burn characteristics do suit the slower burn of the oil, also the delivery of the oil under more pressure must be helping with the spray pattern on the injector side of things. All in all my view is that black diesel is an experimental fuel, its not standard and vehicles are optimised to run clean on pump fuel all I am doing is optimising my state of tune to produce a setup optimised for running on my own blend. w85 diesel blend with 100ml ethyl nitrate and 100ml butyl acetate per 30ltrs, apparently the adetives help with the centane value and aid with creating a complete combustion, all my experimentation with RUG over the years has ended up in tears

 

[The FNG]

I wasn't insulting your mechanical ability. I have used a meter to time my truck and I know from that experience what it can take to get it perfect. Some are more inclined than others, obviously you are on the side of "more".

That being said, I still believe the proper timing meter would give you the best result. Regardless of how your pump is built, your engine still requires a shot of fuel at a specific time during its cycle. That really shouldn't change a huge amount. The meter would give you a specific number as to where you are and give you a reference point to work from. Plus, real numbers say a lot and you may find yourself surprised at where the timing actually is.

It may be easier to reference from pump diesel instead of WMO so that your source of fuel is consistent and would allow you to properly tune your frankenpump to your engine.

EDIT: I forgot to ask-- How do you clean your waste oil? That may be more of the problem than the timing. And on the vapor lock thing...are you sure you are not caveating your pump because it can't pump the fuel you are putting in fast enough??

 

[metrobruce]

I wasn't insulting your mechanical ability. I have used a meter to time my truck and I know from that experience what it can take to get it perfect. Some are more inclined than others, obviously you are on the side of "more".

That being said, I still believe the proper timing meter would give you the best result. Regardless of how your pump is built, your engine still requires a shot of fuel at a specific time during its cycle. That really shouldn't change a huge amount. The meter would give you a specific number as to where you are and give you a reference point to work from. Plus, real numbers say a lot and you may find yourself surprised at where the timing actually is.

It may be easier to reference from pump diesel instead of WMO so that your source of fuel is consistent and would allow you to properly tune your frankenpump to your engine.

EDIT: I forgot to ask-- How do you clean your waste oil? That may be more of the problem than the timing. And on the vapor lock thing...are you sure you are not caveating your pump because it can't pump the fuel you are putting in fast enough??

sorry for getting defensive, I have sorted the smoking out, it must have been the timing, I have advanced it untill the peak combustion pressure is at the same or similar point to when on diesel, when the pump was built I ran wvo and it was built to deliver a larger quantity of fuel to the injectors and in theory reach there peak braking pressure earlier, this in its self advances the timing. the hub was originally retarded so that it would run on diesel and wvo well. I have run a whole range of other vehicles on wmo but they were clapped out old things to start with and they got used as work horses and then thrown away.


I have had to do some research and info is very thin on the ground with regards to combustibility, having said that I found some stuff regarding the reaction between acidic additives and alkaline additives, this can cause the oil contain calcium based deposites and soap, this is most likely what the guys with centrifuges are getting stuck to the outside of the bowl. I am going to build a diesel engined centrifuge by using one of my spare engines, driving a diff the wrong way (4:1 ish) so that it will step up the revolutions rather than reduce and then fasten the bowl to the input flange on the diff . my filtering process at the minute is to, gravity feed oil across an old george foreman grill so that it only heats a thin layer of oil to evaporate any suspended water(works quite well with imulsified oil from HGF too), this then drops into a 30l bucket containing 4.5l of diesel 100ml ethyl nitrate centane booster and 100ml butyl acetate (this seems to detatch some of the free dirt from the oil and deposits the stuff in the filter I use to polish and mix my final fuel, the next step is to pump the oil over to my final barrel to re circulate the oil through the filter, it uses two 12v electric lift pumps that pump the oil round using power from my car, when happy with the blend I stop the pumps remove the recirculating pipe from the barrel and put it in my tank and turn on the pumps to transfer the oil. The whole process takes the best part of 1 hour start to finish. You could be right about cavitation, my pump is tuned and is capable of revving the engine past 6000rpm with ease and revs more like a gasoline engine, maby the rate the rpm's increase effects the RUG mix, I have had it in two seperate vehicles, a vw transporter t4 and the current one, I have gone back to the diesel blend and its fantastic and I have covered around 2000 miles on the filters that are installed.

 

[snicklas]

That being said, I still believe the proper timing meter would give you the best result.

One thing about this. He made the comment about having the proper dial indicator to time the pump. In the case of the Bosch VE pump, they are not timed dynamically by a meter like the IH and Detroit IDI's are. There is a specific sequence that is followed, and part of that is to insert this dial indicator into the proper port on the pump, move the pump and/or engine to the proper place and Zero the dial indicator, then move the pump to a specific setting as indicated by the dial. So in this case, using this technique, and it being a Bosch pump, it has been timed correctly. I have a VW with a Bosch Pump and have been doing research on how to properly time them, because I need to replace the timing belt, and the top cover of my pump is leaking, and I need to remove it to replace the gasket on the cover.

Here is how a Bosch VE pump is timed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5RF6C1OX70

This is also the same way the Cummins with the VE pump is timed......

 

[metrobruce]

One thing about this. He made the comment about having the proper dial indicator to time the pump. In the case of the Bosch VE pump, they are not timed dynamically by a meter like the IH and Detroit IDI's are. There is a specific sequence that is followed, and part of that is to insert this dial indicator into the proper port on the pump, move the pump and/or engine to the proper place and Zero the dial indicator, then move the pump to a specific setting as indicated by the dial. So in this case, using this technique, and it being a Bosch pump, it has been timed correctly. I have a VW with a Bosch Pump and have been doing research on how to properly time them, because I need to replace the timing belt, and the top cover of my pump is leaking, and I need to remove it to replace the gasket on the cover.

Here is how a Bosch VE pump is timed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5RF6C1OX70

This is also the same way the Cummins with the VE pump is timed......

cut my teeth on vw idi diesel engines and also mtdi conversions, I would be more than happy to point you in the right direction with regards to the mtdi conversions and how to set up the pump. mtdi is the way forwards when running wmo in a 1z/ahu/alh engine. I fitted a 1z mtdi to a transporter t4.


I have almost got the tune spot on, I will be turning the thing down a touch tho as it is a bit smokey when the foot hits the floor, this cant be good for egt's, but its pretty quick for a 1.5na diesel tho.