my dyno numbers are in.

[88 Ford]

I've always considered dyno tests (as well as any other forms of testing) one of the more interesting parts. As a "do it myself" sort of guy as well as someone who actually runs tests, I'm always interested in the effects of design change. However, as the years have gone by, I find myself less and less impressed by the dyno tests provided. Now, I often find myself more disappointed, disillusioned, and even disgusted with what is being said. Instead of reading a well thought out design discussion that is accompanied by well executed backup tests, I often feel like I'm reading information provided more to motivate somebody to spend money, incomplete discussions that left out information that really needed to be known or created more questions in my mind than gave me answers, discussions that, to me, were "tilted" or biased rather than neutral in position and sometimes, in my mind, even determined or affected the tests' outcome, comments that obscured truths, procedures that protected a product that had one or more design flaws, opinions that could be as misleading to some as they might be helpful to others, etc. The following discussion is not based on any one immediate situation but on hundreds that I've been witnessing for years. This following discussion is also going to disturb many who read it so you are being warned, up front, about that possibility.



Problems with dyno testing.

There are no industry standards on dyno testing procedures to assure consistency of results that allow accurate comparison. While the data from sensor readings taken during a dyno test are usually CORRECTED to a specific temperature and barometric pressure to make comparisons easier, the manner in which the test(s) is/are run can vary considerable from one dyno cell to another, from one dyno operator to another, even reasons why test(s) were run in the first place, etc. - can create enough difference in outcome that just comparing numbers from different tests might end up being very misleading.

For example, while the best way of running a dyno test might be with open collectors (assuming the engine is going to be used that way), the reality many shops have to face is that they are in or near residential areas so dyno testing has to be conducted with some sort of exhaust system. Now one must be concerned not only about how the basic exhaust systems differ from shop to shop (what mufflers are used as well as how many), how different in size the flexible tubing BETWEEN the pipes and the rest of dyno cell's exhaust system might be, (These differences might not seem important to many but I remember arguments between some fellows in this area about "so and so's" dyno reading 25 HP higher than some others' dynos and that, to some, meant he was using a different CORRECTION (altitude and barometric pressure) factor to make his engines look like they were making more horsepower and torque. When I pointed out to them that I thought "so and so's" exhaust system may be better thought out than others, these fellows said that they had never thought of that possibility. So, in effect, they were accusing him of cheating when that may not have been the case at all.)

Not to downgrade any dyno results anyone as but this so true! For some reason as far as how our diesels are geared even compared to newer ones, I think dynojets might read a lil bit lower than the actual hp. Idk though. But anyway it got me wondering that after I read the little dyno article NMB2 posted. It said, "Inertia dyno's work on the principle of the acceleration of a known mass over time. Their rollers are the known mass. Weighing in at over 2500lbs or so." First off our truck are not meant to be quick accelerators due to gearing and the rev limit cus they are diesels. It said the faster you can accelerate the rollers the more horsepower the dyno would read. So, due to this if you changed to a different gear set, it could alter the results. Secondly, there is only a 2500 lb load on a Dynojet. That definitely will not load our truck simply due to the fact that our trucks weigh a hell of a lot more and it doesn't take into account wind resistance and other factors. The lower load on the truck will lead to smaller numbers overall than if we were driving it on the road.

Also, I have heard it mentioned about tuning of our trucks. What can be done as far as tuning other than timing the truck and setting the fuel screw? I'm not the most knowledgeable at all on this subject. Lol

 

['94IDITurbo7.3]

If these IDI engines are capable of with standing those power numbers from the factory for the life of the engine then why are there not more of these high powered IDI's running around?
Another question for you. If the IDI was designed to handle these big power numbers from the factory for 300,000+ miles then why can't a stock IDI making stock power numbers last 500,000-700,000 miles before needing engine work?
If you could get a fairly cheap IDI and do such simple mods to it then why haven't more people done so? i mean come on who in there right mind doesn't like big HP and torque numbers?

Also NMB2, I understand your original inention for posting you trucks power numbers, but if you actually thought that you could post something like that and then make a claim that one set of products was cleary better than the other w/o comparing the other product on your vehicle and not get any flack or people questioning you in return, then it is about time that you get an earfull from others!

 

[jabink89]

I havent been on this site for quite some time, man ive missed alot....i have sat here and read though all 15 pages religously and boy almost makes me want to spend some $. but for now im content with my ats 088 making 10 psi (my old 7.3 motor is still sitting in my garage in pieces from when i hit 17psi)....... but man props to all you guys hitting all these milestones.....i love my both my IDI trucks to death and am super excited to see the progress.....

 

[88 Ford]

I really do think an idi can be at that power level and survive. The Chevy 6.5/6.2 aren't built as well as our engines and Heath Diesel has them hitting over 500 hp and performing at that level. So there is no reason in my mind that ours can't last at 300+ horsepower. Oh and just because the factory didn't do it, doesn't mean a whole lot to me. They didn't even care to put a turbo on um from the get go, so imo they weren't too worried about power in the slightest bit.

 

[93_444idi]

even the turbo idis were hampered intentionally from the factory so they wouldn't beat out the 460 trucks. what they did from the factory has no influence on what they're capable of in my opinion. i dont doubt these numbers are possible on an idi, i just question whether they actually were done.

 

[towcat]

things move slowly in the IDI world.
back in 2005 it was rare to see a 6.9/7.3 get intercooled. now, even the new members with little time on their motor, are hanging IC's without asking twice. I'd even say up to two years ago there was strong debate on whether or not our trucks even need an IC. We have no factory support or aftermarket support so performance enhancements are a personal and expensive undertaking. there's many benchracers who come and go here. they are merely an irritation to me. Ken, Mel, and now NMB2 have earned my respect. they've went out on their own and pushed the envelope. but if it is done for commercial gain, do be prepared for scrutiny and back up what you sell.
Ken's problems are not with his product, it is with the after sales support. that will make or break a company. that is the only reason why Mel got involved in making a hot pump. even Mel has his detractors, but most are 5150 cases. NMB2, I thank you for pushing the envelope but never forget, repeatability of the results is what solidifies your claim.
thanks everyone for trying to keep it civil
it really shows our strength in community

 

[riotwarrior]

Here look at things this way....

1 if a company IH/Ford built a high powered IDI or gas engine to begin with regardless of what we want, where would room for improvement be in future developments from said companies? There wouldn't be much headroom so they don't operate that way....look at any vehicle and you can all see what I mean...be it econo box to powerhouse sports cars, light duty trucks to SUPER DUTY...they just don't do it that way!

2 Gas or diesel makes no difference, I have yet to see a company come out with a new design that is maxed out from the git go!

3 If our engines can make these power levels and do so for 100K + miles great! Where the issues come in is in soft parts/wear parts, rings, bearings etc. Greater stress imposed from higher HP TQ levels equates to greater wear. Is the parent company willing to support their product under warranty at that level or not? Is there a capability for more power....most likely yes.

4 Maybe IH/Ford being early in Diesel development needed to see how well the product was received by the public before initializing increased output #'s, and building more powerful engines.

5 The fact that Ford went to DI from IDI for more power, was a matter of general growth and control of what was coming down the pipe....just as cars went from carbs to EFI, diesels had to get electronic controls for power and mileage, and emissions concerns that lets face it are only getting more stringent.

6 If we as users can get parts/ pieces to work well together...AKA add on turbo's custom pumps and injectors, intercoolers, propane, ****, N2O, then Kudos to those willing to stepup up to the plate to do so.

7 MAKING UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS that this product is better than that one, with out having empirical data to support those claims is just asking to be ROASTED especially in an online forum!

suggesting that your setup works because X, Y and Z are done is ok but not to put down others in so doing. All of us here are wanting MORE power, but at what cost ....be it in the wallet, reliability, ease of use/tuning, easy to get parts anywhere in case of breakdown....etc are we willing to take a hit on any or all of those and more? Maybe, perhaps not.

Anyone who wants to go out and be different kewl do so, I know I try like crazy not to fit the box around me but to climb all over the outside of it and make the box a ball by bashing the crap out of it when I can.

Nuf rant and M2CW

 

[towtruckdave]

To the op: there are some real problems with this dyno run proving DPS stuff is better than Moose stuff.

1 Your scientific method is *****. No side by side comparison, yet you feel the need to say that a DPS pump is superior? If this is the same sort of reasoning used to design your truck, I am "impressed" it starts.

2 The moose stuff is obviously the target in your sights. Why?

3 Your examble of a "peaky" torque curve on a different engine that runs a Moose pump is more indicative of a restriction that a pump tuning issue.

4 Your torque to HP aint right. You have been given the benefit of the doubt by most the good folks here. I would be more likely to believe you if you had no agenda. I, however, do see your agenda, so I think you are full of ****.

5 There is a pump available called The Super Moose.

Also, copper head gaskets of various thicknesses are not top secret.

But what I noticed most of all, Mel does not try to argue any of this. He is a good example of unwaivering integrity and class, and HIS products and service speak for themselves.

I am sorry to further the debate, but there is no getting around it at this point.

Thanks for the laughs.

 

[FordGuy100]

I'm going to play devils advocate and say he was told DPS was bad from the get go, and all along. If anyone of us was taunted with that info over and over, and we thought it was good, I'm sure we would also defend it a little more aggrisivly than normal.

 

[redneckaggie]

but why target moose products? why not just say i bought x and it performs way better than you said, not I bought x and it is so much better than y

 

[FordGuy100]

If I was in his spot, I would. We all told him don't do DPS for this reason, and that, and moose was the only way to go.

If it were me, I would try to proove something as well. He did catch a lot of flak from the majority of us in the beginning.

 

[FordGuy100]

If I was in his spot, I would. We all told him don't do DPS for this reason, and that, and moose was the only way to go.

If it were me, I would try to proove something as well. He did catch a lot of flak from the majority of us in the beginning.

 

[GOOSE]

How about a gracious invite to the idi rally to witness this spectacle of power?

 

[93_444idi]

well due to his inconsistency with what mods he has and his apparent loyalty to dps i'll be buying a moose pump this summer. i was considering a dps pump when this started but the fact that he went on and on about his turbo and then claimed it is stock has me questioning the truthfullness of any of this. that could just be some powerstroke dynosheet for all we know. not saying it is, but his lieing and hiding information makes me consider the possibility. however, countless people have given the moose pump props and they're built by a reputable individual on this site, so that still seems the route to go.

 

[Brimmstone]

Shoot I'm only a couple hours away if he wants a third party witness I'll shoot over to Polk and can then vouch for the numbers. I've run a Dynojet and a Mustang in the past and know how they operate so I can interpret the data as it is being shown on the screen. After that if the numbers are close or better than he can say it was witnessed with X configuration at X time.