Help me decide, E4OD vs ZF5

[Daryl4]

This is why I take pride in my 5 manual vehicles lol. I actually just got this tattoo last night, they said it will fade quickly with the way I work but for 20$ I thought it was pretty cool

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Cool tat and cool pic with the matching shifter in the background. But... only a 5 speed.. lol. Kidding, even the vast majority of heavy trucks with 10, 13, 18 etc. gears still have a 5 speed main box.

Reminds me of maybe my biggest complaint with most light and medium transmissions though. First and reverse should be across from each other. Going between the two quickly in most boxes is awkward. But, with a good auto and a good shifter it can be done wicked fast with no loss of momentum. Second complaint would be synchros, to my mind 1st and reverse should have synchros the rest shouldn't. They are the only gears it's near impossible to match speeds on so are needed, on the rest of the gears the scynhros make floating gears harder. But again most transmissions are opposite of that.

 

[Daryl4]

Slightly more on topic - man if I could put a super 10 in this sucker that would ROCK, I'd totally roll that. But as far as I'm aware there's no medium duty super 10 configuration available. A big twin countershaft unit is just too much, heavy, in the way, etc. Maybe there's a combo of 5 speed and splitter out there that would work IDK. Maybe a Clark and a GV, not sure, can't do it now anyway, maybe someday...

 

[austin92]

Cool tat and cool pic with the matching shifter in the background. But... only a 5 speed.. lol. Kidding, even the vast majority of heavy trucks with 10, 13, 18 etc. gears still have a 5 speed main box.

Reminds me of maybe my biggest complaint with most light and medium transmissions though. First and reverse should be across from each other. Going between the two quickly in most boxes is awkward. But, with a good auto and a good shifter it can be done wicked fast with no loss of momentum. Second complaint would be synchros, to my mind 1st and reverse should have synchros the rest shouldn't. They are the only gears it's near impossible to match speeds on so are needed, on the rest of the gears the scynhros make floating gears harder. But again most transmissions are opposite of that.

My wrangler has the ax15 and it doesn't struggle to rock 1st to R and R to 1st if I'm stuck. Zf5 hates rocking back and forth. Haven't got the m5od or the Saginaw stuck yet lol. Ax15 and Saginaw make floating easy, zf5 and m5od are finicky. I worked in a shop for a while and winter time we would always get auto rebuilds in from people rocking their vehicles shifting too quickly. Never had a manual come in though .

Shifter in the background was intentional, figured it fit . I should have them put a splitter on my finger tips lol


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[Daryl4]

I worked in a shop for a while and winter time we would always get auto rebuilds in from people rocking their vehicles shifting too quickly. Never had a manual come in though .

A fair enough point, ya can't get the manual in gear to bust it, lol. But yeah I had a 727 in a Jeep that was F'd up from the previous owner doing that.

It's actually one of the primary things I'm curious about with the Baumann controller that I don't yet have an answer to. If there's a way to tune the R to D and D to R shift so it protects the transmission if done while still rolling in the opposite direction. I fear no as I see no way for the controller to know what direction the vehicle is going. So any D/R shift setting would be the same no matter what direction I was going. So if I softened it up to protect the transmission when rocking it'd also be soft if shifting to D while rolling forward. And well maybe that's fine, I'm sure gunna find out.

Edit- Second thought likely even worse really. There's truly no D/R shift only N-R and N-D, so all the controller will have is a shift from N to either R or D which will always be handled the same. Course there's 4 "tables" one of which is certainly going to be 4WD mode, that could be adjusted for rocking.

 

[snicklas]

[flame suit on]

I don't mind an automatic either......

I've driven a ZF-5, E4OD and even a C-6 back in the day,

My 92 has the E4OD, and it works well.... but, I am 99.99% sure it is not a factory/stock transmission. The truck has 205,000+ miles and has towed in a previous life. It has a brake controller, a heavy duty bumper/hitch and there is evidence of rails in the bed and there is a 7-Way in the bedside. It works well, and is most definitely NOT a slushbox......

The ZF-5, if that's what's in there, fine, but not having one is not a deal breaker for me....

The C-6 was a good transmission, but no lockup did get annoying....

Now, I do have an unfair advantage when it comes to an automatic is the 5r110 behind my 6.0..... now that's one NICE automatic......

 

[trackspeeder]

A fair enough point, ya can't get the manual in gear to bust it, lol. But yeah I had a 727 in a Jeep that was F'd up from the previous owner doing that.

It's actually one of the primary things I'm curious about with the Baumann controller that I don't yet have an answer to. If there's a way to tune the R to D and D to R shift so it protects the transmission if done while still rolling in the opposite direction. I fear no as I see no way for the controller to know what direction the vehicle is going. So any D/R shift setting would be the same no matter what direction I was going. So if I softened it up to protect the transmission when rocking it'd also be soft if shifting to D while rolling forward. And well maybe that's fine, I'm sure gunna find out.

Edit- Second thought likely even worse really. There's truly no D/R shift only N-R and N-D, so all the controller will have is a shift from N to either R or D which will always be handled the same. Course there's 4 "tables" one of which is certainly going to be 4WD mode, that could be adjusted for rocking.

Going forward to reverse while moving really will not hurt a stock E4OD. There is way to much slop in the low reverse clutch pack.

Now with a modified unit, you want a complete stop before changing directions. If you don't, stuff will break.

 

[madpogue]

So let's see the tattoo of the clutch pedal pad on the bottom of your left foot......

 

[Thewespaul]

So let's see the tattoo of the clutch pedal pad on the bottom of your left foot......

It's under my third foot

 

[The Warden]

We knew it was happening, but the actual extent of three pedal abandonment remained somewhat elusive. It was more of a feeling than a grim statistical representation. Now we have a number, and it’s dismal.

The Los Angeles Times reports that an Edmunds study has shown that that less than 3 percent of all cars sold in the U.S. come with the transmission that many — ironically — still refer to as a “standard.”

The Manual Transmission is Almost Dead - The Truth About Cars

To be fair, with how quickly they're trying to push self-driving cars down our collective throats, the other two pedals and the steering wheel are becoming an endangered species. Won't stop me from fighting both trends to the death, though.

That's hard enough with an auto.

Now try doing it with a 40 foot charter bus

 

[david85]

well if F250XLT is the biggest E4OD fan, then I guess I'm #2 or #3.

I've been running a built E4OD with the old Baumann controller for the better part of a decade and I like it. Having said that, I do still have some gripes.

Reverse engagement is delayed by up to a second. This is due to having excess clearance in the reverse clutch pack. Had I known more about this problem when building the transmission, I could have fixed this but until it dies, I'll just live with it.

Reverse ratio is very tall. And this in my view is the only real weakness of the E4OD. Anyone running 4.10 gears probably won't have any issues, but a nutcase like me with 3.08s certainly can stall it rather easily when pushing a trailer backwards up a ramp. If you're not careful, this can overheat the transmission. Fortunately, I did fit a transfer case when I did the C6 -> E4OD swap, so low range eliminates that problem. I had 3.08s with the C6 as well, and it didn't seem to stall as badly under the same conditions.

A better control strategy for the clutch lockup would have been nice. Currently, it can only be controlled based on throttle position and road speed. It will also unlock when approaching a shift point. This is fine, but as soon as it unlocks, the truck loses speed and changes its mind on taking the next gear. So now its running with an open converter and no longer accelerating. I timed sequencer protocol could have fixed this but its only a problem on light acceleration. And again, this is with the old baumann setup, not the new one. I have no idea if the factory setup has the same problem.

I did have the opportunity to drive a ZF5 powerstroke once (1995 I think). It had plenty of grunt but I found the clutch to be fairly heavy. If you're used to that, then its no real issue but I wouldn't want to deal with that after a long day at work. The same setup with a single mass flywheel was better, but it groaned very loudly anywhere below 1500 RPM. And I often cruise my engine in that zone when unloaded.

My "Toy" vehicles are all stick shift, but if the ZF 5 were the only manual option, I would pick the E4OD every time.

In fact, I'm even starting to daydream about how to swap in one of those newer ford 6 speed autos. Had a chance to drive some late model superduties when I was in the oil patch and they were very nice. Full lockup is maintained from 2nd gear on up, even when shifting. My personal company vehicle at the time was a duramax/allison combo and it still unlocked every time the transmission needed to change gears.

I didn't like much about the 2012-2014 ford superduties that I drove. Harsh ride, crude interior, tinny doors and vague steering that was overboosted. But that 6 speed auto with double overdrive? That was nice.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

well if F250XLT is the biggest E4OD fan, then I guess I'm #2 or #3.

That's because,they think; surely there can't be more than 1.

The used one I just put in my F450 has a fairly long,reverse delay too but,for just nearly core cost I gave for it,no flashing od light,perfect shifting and with no leaks.......I can't complain.

 

[Daryl4]

David, thanks for the great reply. I've decided to stick with the E4OD and bought a Baumann controller, it arrived yesterday.

I currently have a rather long delay to reverse as well, we'll see if the Baumann can help that.

FWIW the Quick 4 appears to do what you want TCC wise with options to stay locked in 2-4 and what they call "sync release" to slip it a bit in time with shifts. As well as the ability to change the TCC parameters for each gear. I saw on there site they'll upgrade older users for $170.

I started another thread here about the Baumann, that I need to put a big replay in with my new info now that I have it. At this point I'm mostly focused on details of how to best utilize the table select wires for details of how I'm going to install it.
https://www.oilburners.net/threads/...ft-quick-4-e4od-controller.81072/#post-961121

 

[david85]

David, thanks for the great reply. I've decided to stick with the E4OD and bought a Baumann controller, it arrived yesterday.

I currently have a rather long delay to reverse as well, we'll see if the Baumann can help that.

FWIW the Quick 4 appears to do what you want TCC wise with options to stay locked in 2-4 and what they call "sync release" to slip it a bit in time with shifts. As well as the ability to change the TCC parameters for each gear. I saw on there site they'll upgrade older users for $170.

I started another thread here about the Baumann, that I need to put a big replay in with my new info now that I have it. At this point I'm mostly focused on details of how to best utilize the table select wires for details of how I'm going to install it.
https://www.oilburners.net/threads/...ft-quick-4-e4od-controller.81072/#post-961121

SWEET! I'm not up to date on the newer baumann setups but that sounds really nice. Mine has been bullet proof all this time but that alone might make me want to install a newer controller.

 

[Daryl4]

David I think these are the 3 screens/menus you'd be most interested in.

Menu for what gears to allow TCC lockup in.

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Menu to select the action done during shifts.

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And most important the table with the added parameters for TCC lockup. Separate curves for lockup timing in each gear. A TCC firmness to select how fast it engages at various throttle positions. TCC Engagement DC is the starting duty cycle and TCC Shift Modulation is how much it slips during gear changes I assume if partial slip is selected.

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[david85]

David I think these are the 3 screens/menus you'd be most interested in.

Menu for what gears to allow TCC lockup in.

You must be registered for see images attach

Menu to select the action done during shifts.

You must be registered for see images attach

And most important the table with the added parameters for TCC lockup. Separate curves for lockup timing in each gear. A TCC firmness to select how fast it engages at various throttle positions. TCC Engagement DC is the starting duty cycle and TCC Shift Modulation is how much it slips during gear changes I assume if partial slip is selected.

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Nope - I don't have most of that. Sounds like its exactly what I'm dreaming of though. Not sure if I can justify the money on this right now but I sent them an inquiry anyway. All in all, I give them credit for keeping the cost of their systems so close to the original.