Disappiontment In The Mountains

[dieseldoug]

I'm learning lots about mountain towing:

theguraut12 - OK, more RPMs, at least until I'm up the 6% grade. I'm anxious to see how I can climb on the return trip.

icanfixall - I did the mark and rotate test, and it's definitely 4.10s. And you're right. The pyro. is before the turbo. With that Banks location, what's a safe temperature range?

FordGuy100 - It all fits. More RPMs means lower exhaust temperature and higher boost. The fifth wheel is tall, 10'8". So, along with the load I'm pushing lots of air.

Again guys, thanks a million. The problem isn't with the truck. It's the driver. But, I'm learning.

 

[dieseldoug]

I'm learning lots about mountain towing:

theguraut12 - OK, more RPMs, at least until I'm up the 6% grade. I'm anxious to see how I can climb on the return trip.

icanfixall - I did the mark and rotate test, and it's definitely 4.10s. And you're right. The pyro. is before the turbo. With that Banks location, what's a safe temperature range?

FordGuy100 - It all fits. More RPMs means lower exhaust temperature and higher boost. The fifth wheel is tall, 10'8". So, along with the load I'm pushing lots of air.

Again guys, thanks a million. The problem isn't with the truck. It's the driver. But, I'm learning.

 

[Leeland]

Kinda feel the opposite is true in how timing affects boost to a degree. Down around 6-7 is where my turbo really spooled the best but the trade off is the truck is very doggy and smokey off boost, above 10* like say 11* it doesn't spool for chit and my over all number is down. But it's stronger and cleaner off boost. The 9.5 that is usually suggested is a good all around number. So unless your timing is sooo far out in the retarded direction I can't see that being the cause for the low boost in regards to the statement in the other post. You'd be complaining of other things first.
Probably need to check for the exhaust leaks, air filter, wg rod adjustment and of course timing to at least see where it's at.
Some thing other then my boost not really being great when my timing was advanced was the truck got doggy up top. Not extremely bad but it was lacking a little compared to what I'm used to and kinda felt more then boost related, was still seeing 13-14#'s or so. Backed back down to around 9.5 and left it. Generally see 15-18#'s with a ATS 093 and a small exhaust leak.

 

[david85]

With a pre turbocharger thermocouple, the general rule is 1000 degrees max continuous EGT, and 1200 absolute max. The aluminum alloy pistons start to soften above 1200...

5 PSI is enough to notice a difference over non-turbo, but not enough to really take advantage of what the engine has to offer. A 7.3L can easily survive 10 PSI sustained, and you will notice a difference. You won't need stronger head bolts for 10 PSI. Even a properly fitted head gasket on a 6.9 (6.9 = 7/16" head bolts VS 7.3 = 9.16" head bolts) will hold up fine at that level.

The next question is what does your exhaust look like?

Lots of smoke could mean a boost leak in the intake or exhaust manifolds.

No smoke could be fuel turned too far down, blocked fuel filter, or simply a worn injection pump. Did you turn the fuel up when you installed the turbo?

As others mentioned, timing also matters too but I'd really like to know what the exhaust smoke is like.

 

[dieseldoug]

I'm learning about the mountains and posting a reply. I've managed to screw up the post twice. Anyway:

theguraut12 - OK, definitely more RPMs when I need them. Looking forward to giving it a try.

icanfixall - Did the mark and rotate, and it's definitely 4.10s. And, you're right. The pyro. is before the turbo. With the Banks location in mind, what's a safe temperature range?

FordGuy100 - It all fits. More RPMs mean more boost and lower exhaust temperature. And, I need to stay out of overdrive. The 5th wheel is tall, 10'8". So, I'm pushing lots of air.

Again, thanks for the info.

 

[junk]

I would adjust your timing to around 8.5 or 9.5 degrees. I had my truck at 11 and it was doggy. Put it back down and more power with better starts.

Once your timing it set I would check your boost. If you never see 9 or 10 psi then I would adjust your waste gate to get your boost up. Even empty if I romp on it and drive hard I can see 7 or 8 Psi. Towing I can hit an occasional 9. Sometime I'm going to adjust my waste gate to get another 1-2 PSI.

Do you ever see black smoke when going Wide open throttle? Makes me question if you need to turn up the pump a little more. I myself am not fond of blowing black smoke so I probably leave my pump turned down a little bit more.

Does seem like you should be pulling better with 4.10 gears.

 

[dieseldoug]

david85,

No smoke until I load up on a long grade. As soon as I shift down the smoke clears up.

I think I'm getting the feel for this. I can get my added power by kicking up the RPMs. I can do that by getting on the throttle early, long before I hit the 6% grade. The 7.3 will take the high RPMs but not high exhaust temperature (over 1000).

I'm definitely going to check timing. I didn't do that after I had to pump rebuilt.

 

[dieseldoug]

junk,

After timing adjustment I'll reset the boost. I left it where it was when I installed the Banks. The highest I've seen is 7 PSI.

Again thanks. Someone should right a manual on how to drive these trucks. But I guess you guys just did.

 

[icanfixall]

A stock Banks wastegated turbo will push 9 lbs easily. I feel you are not seeing all that turbo can do yet. How many miles are on the turbo. Its simple and easy to adjust the waste gate. For most its best to remove the can from the turbo. Then lengthen the pushrod. Inside the can is a spring. The design is the spring pressure keeps the gate closed till enough intake boost pressure is developed by the turbo. Then it will crack open the gate and allow some of the hot exhaust gas to bypass the hot turbo wheel limiting the power to the intake side of the turbo. That limits the boost pressure. Some members have removed the can and plugged the hose from the turbo. Then be careful watching the boost gauge because you have no safety valve that opens limiting the boost pressure. Hot exhaust gas holds the gate closed. Boost pressure on the can overcomes the spring pressure and opens the gate. Timing is very important.

 

[hotshotidi]

if yo want get deeper gears if its 2wd just go get another rear its alot cheaper than gearing

 

[dunk]

I have been around the IDI's for a long time and have always heard: An N/A IDI will tow anything you want at 45MPH. A Turbo IDI will tow anything you want at 55MPH. But that is exactly what they were designed to do, because of their age. I would say a stock 460 from the same era probably would give the same performance, with less fuel economy.....

A stock 460 maybe, but a desmogged 460 on a budget rebuilt with nothing real special done to it (ported heads, torque cam, headers) will blow away my IDI in the hills. My 460 happily tows 5000 lbs or so at 70 MPH at about 2000 RPM in 5th up most grades. 4th on steeper grades and it'll hold 70 fine. Very rarely it has been screaming in 3rd up unusally sleep grades but still passing other trucks. My IDI with Banks non wastegate... Just miserable to tow with. The same hills the 460 tows at 65-70 the IDID will be at 35-40 by the top of the hill floored and screaming while losing MPH. The lesser hills the IDI can hold 60-65 but before the crest EGT is topping 1000 and I have to back off and slow down. That's at 10-11 psi being highest I've seen.

Now even without an overdrive gear the IDI does have a higher MPG (11 for IDI vs 10 for 460) but given price difference from 93 octane to diesel the cost per mile is about the same. Not sure what it is with these IDIs that they don't make power, but it sucks. Maybe they just need more boost than mine is making along with more fuel adn an intercooler to keep EGT reasonable. My goal is to eventually have my IDI tow as well as my 460. They are simple reliable workhorses though. I like these engines, but they really don't make power easily or cheaply like the 460s I'm used to.

 

[oregon96psd]

^^^ This has been my experience with all of the idi's I've been around. Utter disappiontment with anything behind it, they feel like they just run out of breath on any real pull. 35-40 mph when the going gets tough, put them on a 7-8% grade for a few miles and you end up wanting to pull your hair out. I tried to hide my face coming over fourth of July pass and whitebird in my company 94 and their not even that steep lol. To the op, I'd say get used to it, that's about what they do, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Greg5OH]

wondering if the intercooler really helps out alot, and a bigger pump. I knwo the few engines that are making close to 300 hors enad 500 footpounds..on paper that sounds really really stout..i wonder how reliable they really are and how easy they tow?

 

[oregon96psd]

I would think that an intercooler would help a lot...it did on my 97, made it a lot smoother and had more power through the entire power band, which also got bigger. The fact that they are idi's is the biggest limiting factor they have going, only so much force can come out of the precup in a very limited time, the rest gets absorbed by the head, thats why they get so hot easily under load. Last time I read the thread about Justins? engine I seem to remember that he couldnt keep headgaskets in it. It also had bottom end problems I think, no oil pressure or something like that. I'll have to go back and read it again. i

 

[jayro88]

To me it sounds like a combination of driving style and mechanical....but the OP has already talked about adjusting the driving style. When towing I know people who will slightly slow down prior to a grade and then hammer it so they can hit the grade while in a higher boost range. Then they can carry the grade much better.

As others have already stated. Your boost sounds low. Even without head studs you are fine in the 10-12psi range as long as you keep your EGTs reasonable.

This is what I would do:

1. Check for leaks that could be affecting your boost levels. If there are none then proceed to #2
2. Check the timing on your IP. As far as a specific number, I have no recommendation, but I would think between 6.5* and 8.5* would be a good starting point. If you are still seeing low boost then proceed to #3
3. Adjust your waste gate to reach the desired boost levels. You may need to turn up the pump some, just watch your EGT's when under heavy load.
4. Upgrade your exhaust, if not already done. As free flowing as possible. I believe Banks recommends 3.5"
5. If you still are looking for more add an inter-cooler. Your boost numbers will drop some, but you will make more power, have lower EGTs and be able to add more fuel.....I believe a number of people have maxed out there stock pumps with an inter-cooler.

Just my .02.

Let us know how it turns out.