Disappiontment In The Mountains

[FordGuy100]

I'm tired of hearing that IDI is a limiting factor, its not really. We are limited by airflow, due to high compression, we cant get a lot of boost. Add into that fuel is another problem.

If anyone thinks an IDI cant make power, search OM606. IDI's can make plenty of power, we are limited in other areas.

 

[jayro88]

I'm tired of hearing that IDI is a limiting factor, its not really. We are limited by airflow, due to high compression, we cant get a lot of boost. Add into that fuel is another problem.

If anyone thinks an IDI cant make power, search OM606. IDI's can make plenty of power, we are limited in other areas.

From all the reading I have done it does not appear that IDI is the issue. The compression issue can be handled by an aftermarket cam to reduce dynamic compression as well as shaving pistons to reduce the compression.

The biggest hurdle is the IP. You have to be able to deliver enough fuel for the desired power output and our pumps are limited due to their physical design.

With that being said, it is easier to make power with newer designs because events within the engine are controlled with a ECU rather than mechanically. You can change the programming to get it to do what you want rather than having to mechanically alter it to do so. You also have to look at the different engine structures. There is a large difference in an inline engine (I-6) and a v8/v6.

 

[dunk]

To me it sounds like a combination of driving style and mechanical....but the OP has already talked about adjusting the driving style. When towing I know people who will slightly slow down prior to a grade and then hammer it so they can hit the grade while in a higher boost range. Then they can carry the grade much better.

Not sure why slowing down before hitting a grade would help. I learned quickly this thing is not a big block with mountains of torque on tap at any RPM to hold a steady 65-70 and even accelerate up a grade. Towing with the IDI I don't dare slow down before a grade, depending on current EGT I either hold it to the floor or somewhat less than mashed before the hill begins. It spools quick at the high highway RPM of 2600+ anyway.

Boost does sound low for the OP. 7 psi max towing uphill does sound low. Exhaust leak maybe? Mine leaked a little and it was a huge difference tightening that up. Cleaning the air filter and reconnecting the filter duct to pull cooler air from the grille seemed to help as well. Also this sounds like a newer Banks, wonder what the wastegate is set at or if it should be adjusted?

The fact that they are idi's is the biggest limiting factor they have going, only so much force can come out of the precup in a very limited time, the rest gets absorbed by the head, thats why they get so hot easily under load.

I think earlier precups had larger throats and a different size chamber. With more boost and fuel would it be advantageous to use the earlier precups or widen the throats of whatever is available?

wondering if the intercooler really helps out alot, and a bigger pump. I knwo the few engines that are making close to 300 hors enad 500 footpounds..on paper that sounds really really stout..i wonder how reliable they really are and how easy they tow?

On paper my 460 puts out north of 500 ft/lbs. Not sure the HP difference really matters if the torque is there, but ballpark of 500 ft/lbs without having to watch EGT like a hawk is what I would l think would be adequate.

 

[jayro88]

Not sure why slowing down before hitting a grade would help. I learned quickly this thing is not a big block with mountains of torque on tap at any RPM to hold a steady 65-70 and even accelerate up a grade. Towing with the IDI I don't dare slow down before a grade, depending on current EGT I either hold it to the floor or somewhat less than mashed before the hill begins. It spools quick at the high highway RPM of 2600+ anyway.

I did not say to enter the grade at a slower speed. I said to enter it at the same speed except with your turbo spooled. You do this by looking ahead. You see the grade coming....if you want to be at 65mph on the grade then slow down to about 55mph, then step on it to put your engine under a greater load and accelerate back up to 65mph as you come up to the grade. This means that you will hit the grade with your turbo already spooled and greater boost numbers rather than running low rpms/load/boost levels and trying to get your turbo to spool once you are mid grade.

It is the same principle as you said about flooring it pre-grade....just have to slow down prior to flooring it if you don't want to exceed a given MPH.

 

[laserjock]

I did not say to enter the grade at a slower speed. I said to enter it at the same speed except with your turbo spooled. You do this by looking ahead. You see the grade coming....if you want to be at 65mph on the grade then slow down to about 55mph, then step on it to put your engine under a greater load and accelerate back up to 65mph as you come up to the grade. This means that you will hit the grade with your turbo already spooled and greater boost numbers rather than running low rpms/load/boost levels and trying to get your turbo to spool once you are mid grade.

It is the same principle as you said about flooring it pre-grade....just have to slow down prior to flooring it if you don't want to exceed a given MPH.

If you drive something with a governor on it this is a little tricky. Learning when to step on it to spool the turbo so that it doesn't de-fuel before you start up the hill is key. If you just hold it steady and wait till you start up the hill, boost will be down and it's a long trip to the top. Same Idea here only the governor is your conscience and the posted speed limit.

 

[dunk]

I did not say to enter the grade at a slower speed. I said to enter it at the same speed except with your turbo spooled. You do this by looking ahead. You see the grade coming....if you want to be at 65mph on the grade then slow down to about 55mph, then step on it to put your engine under a greater load and accelerate back up to 65mph as you come up to the grade. This means that you will hit the grade with your turbo already spooled and greater boost numbers rather than running low rpms/load/boost levels and trying to get your turbo to spool once you are mid grade.

It is the same principle as you said about flooring it pre-grade....just have to slow down prior to flooring it if you don't want to exceed a given MPH.

Define spooled. For my truck at the base of a hill towing at steady speed it's at 2600 RPM and maybe 4 psi, floor it just before the transition without any additional speed and it's right up to ~8 then creeps up to 10-11.

If I were to try get to 10-11 psi before the hill then my EGT will be too high very soon into the climb vs closer to the top. Let off to keep EGT at ~1000 and if there's much hill left it's 35 MPH the rest of the way. I try to maximize MPH and psi at the base of a hill while minimizing EGT. From my experience driving as you suggest would keep desired cruise MPH at base, unknown change to psi (coming from ~8 psi), and increased EGT (from ~650). The lack of torque is miserable, but if it wasn't for EGT issues before the crest the truck would probably stabilize around 50 MPH uphill.

 

[FordGuy100]

You would think guys with non gated turbo's would have the advantage when it comes to EGT's. 15+psi might be way out of the efficiency range of my turbo, but it sure kept EGT's down.

The highest EGT I saw towing was 1300* which happened when I was at WOT in 4th at 50mph (1800rpm, boost around 12psi. The only reason for going so slow was a semi hit the hill faster, got in front of me, then slowed down) pulling a few mile long 6% grade, and it took about a minute to get there. Once downshifted into 3rd I accelerated back up to 60mph, and EGT's fell to 1050* sustained (boost gauge maxed, probably 15-18psi). Nothing fancy with my rig besides an 093 ATS kit, unhooked wastegate, straight pipe, and a maxed stock pump.

But every situation is different. That fifth wheel has a chit ton more frontal area than what I was towing, and that will play a big role. I still think 50mph should be doable, which is probably right around the governor for you in 3rd.

 

[Rot Box]

To the op, given your trucks specs and size/weight of the trailer I'd say that speed sounds pretty typical to me


Getting the pump timed is a great idea. I agree your boost seems a bit low... Definitely plop it down on the governor--it's not going to hurt it. That said I wouldn't expect to see a huge increase in speed. I love the IDI and wouldn't trade it for much else but pulling a 29' fifthwheel through the Cascades, Rockies, Sierras etc can be really tough. In a perfect world you can get on the throttle, peak the boost gauge and maintain decent egt's/speed from bottom to summit. Rarely---almost never---does that happen. You're always stuck behind some joker going slower than you hopelessly trying to pass someone going the same speed as them, getting stopped at a traffic light at the bottom of the grade with no way of gaining much speed before the pull, slowing down to 30mph in the sharp twisty turns in order to keep it on the road.. The list goes on. Lots of high elevation 6% grades around here and none are very forgiving.

I've found that once you learn to ignore the mile long train of cars behind you the scenery is quite lovely at that speed... FTW

 

[laserjock]

I've found that once you learn to ignore the mile long train of cars behind you the scenery is quite lovely at that speed... FTW

 

[PwrSmoke]

First thing I would do is go out with your rig loaded for bear and get on the scales. People tend to underestimate weight in my experience... unless they are bragging things up for a good war story, which it doesn't sound like you are doing. When I first started towing big with my '86 in the early '90s, I was appalled at how sluggy it was with my rig (see below for the config). Prior to this trip, I had felt invincible, what with my Banks turbo! Got on the scales about a third of the way into the trip... 19,200 lbs! Holy crap! Considering that, I was doing pretty good! I soon learned that a full 100 gallon water tank was not really needed, nor the gigantic 100# "extra" house battery. I wasn't quite doing the rock collection thing Lucille Ball did in The Long, Long Trailer but I was definitely lugging the kitchen sink and then some. Knocking off a thousand pounds helped a lot and over the years I lightened up lots more. Weigh that puppy!

I towed many thousands of miles at 17,000-19,000 GCWR (30 foot Terry Manor and a a Six Pack overhead camper on the truck... I weighed it). Banks Gen 1 non-wastegated turbo. That was about 15 years ago when there was less call to be embarrassed by the modern "super truck" stuff that has double the power and triple the torque. Still, I made 10-14 psi boost (depending on load or altitude) and I wasn't afraid the rev above 3,000 when the job required it... watched the pyro. Most times I set 900-950 sustained as my limit but would do shorter runs at 1,000-1,100. My truck had about 80,000 miles of very little BUT towing before it was "retired" to being a work/farm truck. Sure, optimize the timing. Maybe tweak the pump a little (sound like you could use a little more fuel). Make sure the exhaust is free. Don't be afraid to rev it. Beyond that:

It Is What It Is

It's never going to be able keep up with the modern stuff, so toss the feelings of inadequacy aside. Forget the "expectations!" Learn to get all the truck can give and then be happy in the slow lane. Remember the term "Mechanical Sympathy" and watch your gauges. I dunno, try to pretend you are back in the '80s when a Banks or ATS-equipped IDI Ford literally RULED the highways. Cue the music, and sing along you old timers,

"Those were the days,
My friends,
We thought they'd never end..."

 

[chris142]

The original owner of mine used it to pull a large bumper pull travel trailer from AZ to AK and back often. 3.55 gears,stock air filter,no turbo and he even kept the stock muffler and tailpipe with those screens in it.

I don't know how he lived with it like that.

But then maybe that's why it only had 59,500 miles on it when I bought it a couple years ago. With all the stock stuff it was a real **** even empty much less loaded with a huge trailer.

 

[Clb]

I like your thinking.
Thanx for thisvvvv

Cue the music, and sing along you old timers,

"Those were the days,
My friends,
We thought they'd never end..."

 

[oregon96psd]

I'm tired of hearing that IDI is a limiting factor, its not really. We are limited by airflow, due to high compression, we cant get a lot of boost. Add into that fuel is another problem.

If anyone thinks an IDI cant make power, search OM606. IDI's can make plenty of power, we are limited in other areas.

"Hi guys, long time since we made a real blog-post. We promised yesterday that we would reveal some of our plans for next season so here you go. Those of you who have followed us on Facebook know that the season ended for us in Riga with yet another engine failure. The failure were the pistons which once again melted. This was the third time this season the pistons melted even though we tried to fix the problem in various ways. The bottom line is that we still don’t know exactly what happened, we have some guesses but we have been wrong three times before." http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/tag/om606/

Sounds pretty cool lol. Sorry, but had to do it, I searched om606

Looks like a cool engine tho, 4 valve canted head at least

 

[jayro88]

Define spooled. For my truck at the base of a hill towing at steady speed it's at 2600 RPM and maybe 4 psi, floor it just before the transition without any additional speed and it's right up to ~8 then creeps up to 10-11.

If I were to try get to 10-11 psi before the hill then my EGT will be too high very soon into the climb vs closer to the top. Let off to keep EGT at ~1000 and if there's much hill left it's 35 MPH the rest of the way. I try to maximize MPH and psi at the base of a hill while minimizing EGT. From my experience driving as you suggest would keep desired cruise MPH at base, unknown change to psi (coming from ~8 psi), and increased EGT (from ~650). The lack of torque is miserable, but if it wasn't for EGT issues before the crest the truck would probably stabilize around 50 MPH uphill.

Each truck is going to spool a little different and require a slightly different driving style. My main point was that he needs to have his turbo spooled just as he is hitting the grade instead of lugging it up the grade at low rpms/low boost levels. If his spools quickly then he can probably just step on it right at the bottom of the hill. If his requires a little more effort then he may have to adjust the technique slightly.

I also recommended that once he gets his pump timing, fuel delivery etc figured out that he adds an inter-cooler. That way he won't need to worry as much about the EGTs when pushing more fuel and higher boost levels.

 

[Black dawg]

The original posters truck has a wastegated turbo...should not ever have to try to get it spooled. On my trucks, (all non waste gated) I have never had to try to get the turbo spooled before a hill, maybe you guys dont run enough fuel?

On the intercooler idea, my truck worked OK, but never impressed me until I added the intercooler. It made a whole different machine out of it. As far as big block vs turbo idi, if the idi runs right, at elevation it will spank a good running big block.