Can I ground both a 12V and a 24V alternator to the same ground

CaptTom

Full Access Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Posts
777
Reaction score
20
Location
ca
Bio-diesel is probably the most effective viscosity modifying tool I have for the WMO it only takes about 5% for best results but as I mentioned I want that cleaning effect. My welder forgot the inspection cut out on the top of the tank and I didn't notice till it was to late. WMO doesn't carmelize if you run it at the wrong temps, Besides by summer I'll be swimming in diesel and not even use the system. Maybe. But this things great for the road and I could find a fill up of WMO just about anywhere, whereas folks are fighting for WVO these days.

So your suggesting I use that HP-1 20 micron filter "ahead of the pump eh" I guess it is just a rock strainer anyway. High flow and high pop pressure, but still pulling instead of pushing the fluid through might cause some problems. whats your experience with that and what exact filter do you use?

One thing driving me nuts is I don't know what kinda gear pump that is. Its got a plate on it with some numbers but thats about it for identification. Got it for $20 out of a surplus store. Works OK but I think its pretty worn out. And you were right on about how long it takes to fill that thing, forever pretty much covers it. I also calculated 60 gph on the filtering process. so it takes about 3 hours 20 to actually get one good filter on the fluid and even then its probably not all clean due to mixing issues. I let it run whenever the truck in running and then filter it again when I fill up the forward tank. So far I've kept straight diesel in the back tank to start and stop on.

The radiator fluid is sacred in my book, Engines gotta be allowed to heat and that heat drawn in a specific way off the block less I end up with uneven heat distribution. And its slow. The exhaust heat exchanger is fast, cheap, and serves to "draw" the fumes through the system. As long as I don't boil anything I'm fine.

I tortured myself with maybe cutting a circle out of the tank to run an exhaust stack up. But the modification at this time is just to expensive, that and I can always go back and do it later once I get all the kinks worked out of the present set up. Silly as it sounds this is pretty much turning out to be a practice unit. I'll do one up eventually thats not a hodge podge of idears

I think my cheapest and most efficient plan on getting 24V to that motor has been found. Two bed mounted bats with a larger alternator and some heating pads for the forward tank to provide the resistance.

Now to go learn what size wire I have to run from where back to the bats. Its gotta come off the regulator doesn't it? not straight off the alternator ?
I should know that one but I'm not really a mechanic
might be worthy of its own thread = how do you wire in a separate battery off an existing alternator

The reason I suggested lowering the pump itself was to help overcome the lift or "suction head" that gear pumps are not good for...they can push like heck, but pulling a draw is problematic, until well primed and in your case, well heated fluid. The dilemma with those bronze gear pumps is wear. They really wear the end plates creating a loss in pressure. Also, even softer chunkies can mar the teeth causing yet another point of wear/loss of pumping ability.

The tank access plates are really easy to install. I sell pre-fabbed access plates with gaskets, bolts and plates. Basically, choose a hole size, use a hole cutter to size, drill holes for bolts, install plates. The neat thing about having a plate, besides tank access for cleaning and inspection is, you can install lotsa stuff on them, fuel supply lines, return lines, gauges, senders... whatever you need. If you eff it up, get another plate! No worries about mis-locating anything in the main structure of the tank. I have them in all my customers boats for easy inspection and some modifications.

Don't forget about the heating pads for filters. They're stuck on the outside, with less volume than the tank and will harden up faster. You could use one of those as your resistor, very small amperage draw...when you need the big tank heated, use a 110V house system like your block heater. Needs bigger power to heat anyway, this way you don't over-stress your 12V electrical system. 200gal is a lot of heating in 40 degree weather....imagine lower temps! Oh wait... you already have a 12V hot water heater element installed in the tank? Why not put two or three in there, plus the filter heaters.

When you "upgrade" your alternator, you should be going to a single wire hook up. That one wire will go to either your isolator or directly to one of the 12V batteries.

Before spending all that money on batteries and wiring, get the alternator. This way you will have the power at hand when you start putting things together.

Wire size = total amps x length plus 10% times 2... I like to make sure there's plenty of copper in my runs... prevents lotsa over-heating. I figure in 10% extra just for additional working room. I like to leave 3-4" at each end for cutting out corroded wire down the road. Boats are corrosion havens. Ground directly to the frame of the truck under the bed. Your tank should be grounded too, to prevent static discharge, especially on reacted fuel that may have too much alcohol left in it from processing... or motor oil that may have been victim to fuel dilution....you never know sometimes. Fuse the hot link too. Those pumps will freeze up on you from time to time, gotta knock start 'em like a bad truck starter. This will cause a spike in power... don't want it to fry wires.
 

sparepart_ken

Registered User
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Posts
2
Reaction score
0
Location
Marshall, TX
Ground is ground. It should make no difference. Both *need* to go to ground!

I should have elaborated. The chassis is going to essentially be common ground and both need to be grounded to the chassis. I've seen this type of setup a couple of times and it works with no problems.
 

david_lee

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Posts
192
Reaction score
0
Location
houston, Tx.
Wow David we went over another question about drawing multiple voltages from multiple batteries and no one, not even some pretty hep electrical engineers threw that diagram out there.

with that system it looks like a common 12v alternator can be used, is that correct?

and to answer someones question there are two 24v motor running the big oil tank and filter I run the truck on. Although I've run 12v through the 24v motors in the summer the thicker fuel due to cold this winter will mean I have to provide 24 volts. A 12v motor of the same HP is to big to fit in the location.

two more batteries are cheaper than setting up an entirely new circuit off its own alternator. Assuming I can charge all four in the diagram above with the same 12v that I already have. So what say you Dave. How many alternators in those military vehicles


a single alternator can run the system i posted, but it would have to be a dual voltage one like the ones we use on our trucks. we also use a Load and Battery Control Device to help even out the current draw from the two circuits. i put the diagram up as more of a way to get you thinking.

i still think you should think a little more about my other suggestion for doing this. getting and mounting a 24v alternator shouldnt cost you more than $150 or so.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-24V-ALTERNATOR-JOHN-DEERE-CASE-KOMATSU-INDUSTRIAL-/130587649842?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e67a16732

then a pair of little deep cycles.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Peg-Perego-12-Volt-Battery-Gator-Polaris-Gaucho-Hummer-/310303696715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483f8aa74b

put it all on its own circiut and you're good to go.
 

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
well Dave I'm always open to suggestion, I like the price tag on that alternator and the idea of having a couple extra bats on board just in case. Is there a voltage regulator I'm going to need ? assuming I end up going with that plan. Deal is battery life, your 24V idea is easier on the batteries and it could easily run 24/7 whenever the trucks running. It allows for smaller wire size but requires another alternator. I'm OK with putting in another but the bracket will have to be custom made. Unless you have one of those up your sleeve as well.
 

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
well Tom you almost got me convinced to put a second pump on the system, But I gotta figure out how. The tank can be cleaned out and reworked some but its a huge pain in the ass. It would also take one hell of a whole saw to drill in that inspection port, but it could be done. I think I've got a 5" whole saw around here somewhere but its hell to operate with a hand drill specially going through 3/16 steel plate

The Heat exchanger and some insulation was about the only thing I was planing to use to heat the tank. Rather than the house electric system. When I start it I'll be running pure bio or just regular diesel. The heater is ahead of the pump, or will be, and so the filter temp ( the important part ) should be OK as long as they are wrapped in insulation. I've build a wire cage since that pict was taken and Ill be insulating that as well. I'm thinking the heating pads under the front tank, line insulation and then another heating element wrapped around the fuel filter should do the trick. Although I'm also replacing the primary fuel pump with a heavy duty one. I haven't dug into the fuel tanks yet buy I understand there's also a pump in therel, so I'll be replacing those with something else as well. Whatever the heavyset duty pump is I can find.

I"m open to suggestion on those pumps by the way. ;-)

anyway thanks all and cheers
Dan

I could also use some suggestions on gear head pumps as the one I have is kinda old and shaky and I'm probably going to need a new one shortly
 

dennis

Registered User
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Posts
20
Reaction score
0
Location
homer ak
"One thing driving me nuts is I don't know what kinda gear pump that is. Its got a plate on it with some numbers but thats about it for identification. Got it for $20 out of a surplus store. Works OK but I think its pretty worn out. And you were right on about how long it takes to fill that thing, forever pretty much covers it. I also calculated 60 gph on the filtering process. so it takes about 3 hours 20 to actually get one good filter on the fluid and even then its probably not all clean due to mixing issues. I let it run whenever the truck in running and then filter it again when I fill up the forward tank. So far I've kept straight diesel in the back tank to start and stop on. "

so you are going through this excercise for a $20.00 surplus you don't know the specs on? post the pump numbers and maybe somebody can look them up. I will try.
Dennis
 
Last edited:

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
well I found pumps that match that one almost exactly, so I went into this knowing I could replace it if necessary, I'll try and get the numbers off it next time I'm at the shop, probably Sunday. My exhaust system just came from JEGS today ( dam those guys are fast ) so I gotta get cranking on that soonest.

So far the pumps worked fine but I put the system together as a junker at first. Then when it worked I built the tank. The gear head is one of the original parts. It was always intended I get a new one and carry a spare. Also I won't be getting one with bras gears. I want one of the stainless ones, was kinda hoping someone had one of those up there sleeve as well.
 

CaptTom

Full Access Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Posts
777
Reaction score
20
Location
ca
well I found pumps that match that one almost exactly, so I went into this knowing I could replace it if necessary, I'll try and get the numbers off it next time I'm at the shop, probably Sunday. My exhaust system just came from JEGS today ( dam those guys are fast ) so I gotta get cranking on that soonest.

So far the pumps worked fine but I put the system together as a junker at first. Then when it worked I built the tank. The gear head is one of the original parts. It was always intended I get a new one and carry a spare. Also I won't be getting one with bras gears. I want one of the stainless ones, was kinda hoping someone had one of those up there sleeve as well.

Don't get me wrong about the pump, it's a great pump, it just doesn't draw, it pushes better.

Stainless gears are good, however, the housing is bronze...two guesses what'll wear.

An 8" port will work best, and yeah.... steel is no friend of hole saws. You may need two or three by the time you're finished. I was assuming it was aluminum... that's a pretty big tank, must weight a ton on its own. Not suggesting you build a different one out of aluminum, but consider it next time and coat the ****** in white bed liner after priming it with a good zinc chromate.

One thing you mentioned too, it was a semi-dual tank due to a baffle in it. How about welding the baffle ports closed(I'm assuming only one baffle in the middle) and turn it into a dirty/clean fuel tank. Get the used oil in one side, pump it through filters into the other side and you'll have a constant flow of fuel in production, you can even pump/clean while you're driving somewhere else. Put a float switch or fuel sender in each tank and you'll know to shut it off when it's done. You'll be driving, the oil will have natural heat coming from somewhere and you'll be recharging your batteries all at once.

You asked for a pump, here's another gear pump designed for oil and is 12V at 8GPM. You can install it in the tank bung on top-self priming.

http://www.graco.com/Internet/T_PDB.nsf/SearchView/OilTransferPumps

Here's the one I prefer:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FILLRITE-Diaphragm-Pump-5P233?Pid=search

Diaphragm pumps don't put up with much sheesh! They will also allow for a pretty large chunk of debris to pass through them without harm.... except fasteners.... trust me on this one.

They're a bit pricey, but they'll do the job without squealing and use a whole lotta amps less in the long run, than than the gear head.

The one in the ad is set up for drum pumping, but the bung adapter can easily be refitted....13gal/min... pump that tank in 15 minutes...depending on temp. I think it will fit nicely on your shelf... no worries over draw/head.

These are similar to what I use in my pumping exercises:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/INGERSOLLRANDARO-Diaphragm-Pump-6CCP6?Pid=search

I can empty a 1000gal fuel tank in about 15 minutes... actually less, but it creates too much foam and atomizes fuel, it becomes a fire hazard if I pump max rated speed. I pump about 1/4 rated speed when passing through my filters. Don't want to blow the filters out either.

You won't have to change your voltage system, but I would still add that hi-out alt and two 6V-batteries in series for deeper amp and draw capabilities....simple is always better.
 

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
way pricey my friend, I'm a cheap bastad and always trying to figure out a way to do more for less. Those gear head pumps can be got in cast iron and steel gears for under $200 a crack, and supposedly lift about 12'

http://www.drillspot.com/products/1321220/Rotary_Gear_Pump_Head_4KHK4_Rotary_Gear_Pump_Head

Found one on Ebay going for about $50 bucks but its a scam. when I bid that $50 bucks some computer program bumped it up to $51. So I gotta wonder whats going on there.

The tank weighs about 500 lbs, add oil and its about a ton.

I'm about to head out to work ( bounce at a club down town ) but I'm looking forward to see whats out there in the way of brackets for that second alternator.
 

CaptTom

Full Access Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Posts
777
Reaction score
20
Location
ca
way pricey my friend, I'm a cheap bastad and always trying to figure out a way to do more for less. Those gear head pumps can be got in cast iron and steel gears for under $200 a crack, and supposedly lift about 12'

http://www.drillspot.com/products/1321220/Rotary_Gear_Pump_Head_4KHK4_Rotary_Gear_Pump_Head

Found one on Ebay going for about $50 bucks but its a scam. when I bid that $50 bucks some computer program bumped it up to $51. So I gotta wonder whats going on there.

The tank weighs about 500 lbs, add oil and its about a ton.

I'm about to head out to work ( bounce at a club down town ) but I'm looking forward to see whats out there in the way of brackets for that second alternator.

Have you read the specs??

Pedestal Gear Pumps?? Intermittent-Duty

Intermittently transfer a wide range of nonabrasive or nonparticulate viscous liquids with a near-pulseless flow in many industrial, commercial, marine, or agricultural applications. Not for use in pulley drive systems that do not have a pillow block shaft assembly. Bidirectional rotation.

Max. pressure: 100 psi
Max. temp.: 210°F (except 4KHJ4, 4KHJ5, 4KHJ6, 4KHJ7, 4KHJ8, 4KHJ9 are 230°F max. temp.)
Max. viscosity: 500 SSU @ 1725 rpm
Self-priming

Cast-Iron
Steel spur gears; ideal for oil-based liquids. 4KHJ4, 4KHJ5, 4KHJ6, 4KHJ7, 4KHJ8, 4KHJ9 have wet-end components of cast-iron, steel, and Viton. 4KHK1, 4KHK2, 4KHK3, 4KHK4, 4KHK5, 4KHK6 have wet-end components of steel, cast-iron, and PTFE.

Note: Higher-viscosity liquids (100,000 SSU) must be transferred with more horsepower at reduced speeds.

Rotary Gear Pump Head,Light Duty, Without Relief Valve, Port Size 1/2 In., Shaft Dia. 0.63 In., Shaft Height 2 5/8 In., 10.8 GPM @ Freeflow, 1/3 HP @ Free Flow, Suction Lift 11.5 Ft., Pump RPM 1725, 10.7 GPM @ 25 PSI, 3/4 HP @ 25 PSI, Max. Pressure 100 PSI, PTFE, Kevlar Packing Seal, Steel Spur Gear, Warranty Length 1 Year


Why spend $200.00 on anything that doesn't work? Not to mention, the steel version has schraders, gotta lube 'em up....in spite of it pumping oil!

The Max viscosity of that pump is only 500SSU's.... olive oil is 12,000-15,000 and warm motor oil is about 2000-2500SSU's IIRC.

BTW- No matter what they tell you about lift on gear pumps, it ain't so in the real werld, unless it's pre-primed and at whatever temp they rated at with viscosity of fluid the same or less.

Just sayin' Amigo! ;Really
 
Last edited:

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
hmmmmm, can't be much different than the one I already have and it seems to be working OK.

these are rated continuous duty but the SSU business I gotta look into. Dont have a clue how they system is calibrated. Does a higher number mean a thicker fluid or vice verse

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053894/k-G3459346?utm_source=google%20shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%2BShopping%2BFeed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CJ_D3syB-6sCFQyn7Qodn1rcvw

( no idea why thats not coming up a link, sorry folks.)
try this one

I tend to forget that the higher the viscosity number the thinner the fluid is. Maybe, I might have that upside down as well.

I do appreciate the tip tho. The whole thing has been a learning process and the pump is the last piece I have to nail down. I'm always open to ideas but its going to take a lot of convincing to get me to go spend $1200 bones on an oil pump. Huge money. Think cheap. There's gotta be a solution.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-absolute-kinematic-viscosity-d_412.html
also in rough agreement is this page
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/kinematic-viscosity-d_397.html
there's a chart of verious liquids on this page that leads me to believe that the pump I've selected, the continuous duty one, not the intermittent, would work. Even if I do eventually wreck the thing with crap going through it I could buy four of these things for every one of the larger types. So the life span of the larger type is the next question. Can I really expect it to outlive one of these smaller pumps by at least 4X

another consideration is that I'm going to be adding 5% bio-diesel to the WMO which is specifically intended to reduce its viscosity. So I think the wear issue is bound to be more of a factor than the viscosity issue. Unless I'm missing something completely. In which case I'm all ears.

Thanks again Tom
the info is invaluable
 
Last edited:

CaptTom

Full Access Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Posts
777
Reaction score
20
Location
ca
hmmmmm, can't be much different than the one I already have and it seems to be working OK.

these are rated continuous duty but the SSU business I gotta look into. Dont have a clue how they system is calibrated. Does a higher number mean a thicker fluid or vice verse

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053894/k-G3459346?utm_source=google%20shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%2BShopping%2BFeed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CJ_D3syB-6sCFQyn7Qodn1rcvw

( no idea why thats not coming up a link, sorry folks.)
try this one

I tend to forget that the higher the viscosity number the thinner the fluid is. Maybe, I might have that upside down as well.

I do appreciate the tip tho. The whole thing has been a learning process and the pump is the last piece I have to nail down. I'm always open to ideas but its going to take a lot of convincing to get me to go spend $1200 bones on an oil pump. Huge money. Think cheap. There's gotta be a solution.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-absolute-kinematic-viscosity-d_412.html
also in rough agreement is this page
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/kinematic-viscosity-d_397.html
there's a chart of verious liquids on this page that leads me to believe that the pump I've selected, the continuous duty one, not the intermittent, would work. Even if I do eventually wreck the thing with crap going through it I could buy four of these things for every one of the larger types. So the life span of the larger type is the next question. Can I really expect it to outlive one of these smaller pumps by at least 4X

another consideration is that I'm going to be adding 5% bio-diesel to the WMO which is specifically intended to reduce its viscosity. So I think the wear issue is bound to be more of a factor than the viscosity issue. Unless I'm missing something completely. In which case I'm all ears.

Thanks again Tom
the info is invaluable


The bigger the SSU, the thicker the slush.

Yes, a diaphragm will outlast by 10X no problem. I've got one for gasoline and BUNA pumpers, had it for 12 years now. Only replaced the pumpers with a $120 kit when I picked up a fastener from inside a fuel tank.... go figger! And why I suggest filters before pumps... ALWAYS! No matter what type or style pump you have. The rebuild kits for diaphragm kits are full rebuild kits and they are the sinchyest to fix of all pumps, almost idiot proof, I can fix 'em.

Wear will only come when it overheats because it's trying to prime itself and when it runs poopie through it, it's not the fluid, it's the dirt and cavitation like all rotating pumps. The slightest amount of lube isn't the problem, again, it is dirt and heat.
 

Boston

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Posts
387
Reaction score
0
Location
Denver
are they continuous use with enough pressure to push all those filters and the centrifuge ? I need between 75 and 100 psi on that fluid and the transfer pump in that link has a 15 psi limit. I'm thinking a convection loop type exchanger arrangement so turn a valve later and its not on the pump. But for the most part the system will be filtering any time the truck is running. So I need some serious continuous duty
 

david_lee

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Posts
192
Reaction score
0
Location
houston, Tx.
well Dave I'm always open to suggestion, I like the price tag on that alternator and the idea of having a couple extra bats on board just in case. Is there a voltage regulator I'm going to need ? assuming I end up going with that plan. Deal is battery life, your 24V idea is easier on the batteries and it could easily run 24/7 whenever the trucks running. It allows for smaller wire size but requires another alternator. I'm OK with putting in another but the bracket will have to be custom made. Unless you have one of those up your sleeve as well.

the alternator is internally regulated so the only question would be how to wire it up. the pictures on the auction suggest that only 2 or 3 wires would be necessary. as for mounting, i figured that wouldnt be a problem for you after seeing that tank you built. all you got to do is pick a spot you like that has enough clearance, find some holes near there, take some measurements, and get to work. one peice of information that you will need to know is that most components need at least 30% of the pulley in contact with the belt.
 

CaptTom

Full Access Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Posts
777
Reaction score
20
Location
ca
are they continuous use with enough pressure to push all those filters and the centrifuge ? I need between 75 and 100 psi on that fluid and the transfer pump in that link has a 15 psi limit. I'm thinking a convection loop type exchanger arrangement so turn a valve later and its not on the pump. But for the most part the system will be filtering any time the truck is running. So I need some serious continuous duty

They are all continuous duty, however, they are not high pressure, as required by the centrifuge you said you were removing in an earlier post, and a reason why I recommended diaphragm. Pushing through filters doesn't require high pressure, unless you've got too many.

Remember, micron rating is not an efficiency calculator either, it is only particulate size. If you use short filters, with a low micron and efficient BETA, you will see restrictions build up pretty fast... although, I don't think you'll have to worry much about the BETA being efficient on most of those filters, but, you do have to worry about their length.WMO is a really dirty business. Although you've got lotsa filters in line, it isn't an efficient system.

Fewer, longer and better BETA rated filters would make the system work most efficiently, filter replacement would be minimized and only high pressure would be needed at the 'fuge.... which I'm still confused about whether or not you're going to use one.

High pressure, like 75psi is a lot in a truck mounted system....I can see a fitting getting loose and the mess now. Although many of those filters are rated to 150 psi, problems associated with blowing out filter gaskets can also be a problem in cold areas...expansion/contraction of gaskets between heated and cooled oil in the tank.

Since there is so much restriction from filters, you will have to push through them with the gear pump... if there's a problem, the fluid will keep going out whatever least path of resistance is... just like electricity.

Diaphragms are great pullers, if there's a failure, it isn't as noticeable because a pin hole won't atomize a 6 foot stream of oily waste into the air....but, it will pump a lot of volume on either a push or a pull system. Pulling through all filters and dumping into the tank equates to less line pressure, less dangers of making a mess and less wear on all joints and filters.

Have fun!


WMO is very under rated, but that's ok, leaves more grease for me! LOL
 

Forum statistics

Threads
91,306
Posts
1,130,026
Members
24,117
Latest member
olsen726

Members online

Top