Can I ground both a 12V and a 24V alternator to the same ground

[david_lee]

i like the idea of drawing thru the filters as a means of reducing the probability of spraying oil all over the place in the event of a failure in any location. i also share your preference, Boston, for building something effective for as little as possible. so i want to share a project i did. i got the idea and basic instructions from here on oilburners, post #20

the only difference is that i didnt fill in the pressure bypass valve because i am redesiging it so that i can use it as a variable pressure regulating valve for my WMO system (on hold as i finish up my second degree)

additionally, i was concerned about the probability that oil would seep out from the shaft-to-housing mating area since it relies on a very tight tolerance rather than a physical seal. as a solution, i got some o-rings that were about 1/16" thick and whose overall diameter was almost exactly the same as the shaft. then i gave the shaft with the gear on it to a friend of mine that works in a machine shop and had him cut me a pair of o-ring grooves in the shaft. one groove near the gear end of the shaft and the other about 3/8" from where the housing stops on the shaft. then, when i reassembled it, i lubed up the o-rings with some grease i have in one of my grease guns. i think soon i will drill a hole that will come out between the two o-rings in the housing and install a zrek fitting so that i can make sure the o-rings stay properly lubricated.

using my cordless screw gun, i've used it a couple of times to pump oil from my drain pan to a 55 gal drum and and once to pump contaminated gas from a boat's fuel tank. with the drill turning at bout 1300 RPM (assuming it is actually turning at the rated speed) and the pump lifting the oil about 3 feet at about 85-90 degrees, it would empty my 4 gal drain pan in less than a min. when my neighbor and i drained the tank on his father's old boat, we got 12 gal of liquid and bugs out in bout 5 min, but could have been faster if he didnt insist on pumping it into gas cans.

 

[CaptTom]

i like the idea of drawing thru the filters as a means of reducing the probability of spraying oil all over the place in the event of a failure in any location. i also share your preference, Boston, for building something effective for as little as possible. so i want to share a project i did. i got the idea and basic instructions from here on oilburners, post #20

the only difference is that i didnt fill in the pressure bypass valve because i am redesiging it so that i can use it as a variable pressure regulating valve for my WMO system (on hold as i finish up my second degree)

additionally, i was concerned about the probability that oil would seep out from the shaft-to-housing mating area since it relies on a very tight tolerance rather than a physical seal. as a solution, i got some o-rings that were about 1/16" thick and whose overall diameter was almost exactly the same as the shaft. then i gave the shaft with the gear on it to a friend of mine that works in a machine shop and had him cut me a pair of o-ring grooves in the shaft. one groove near the gear end of the shaft and the other about 3/8" from where the housing stops on the shaft. then, when i reassembled it, i lubed up the o-rings with some grease i have in one of my grease guns. i think soon i will drill a hole that will come out between the two o-rings in the housing and install a zrek fitting so that i can make sure the o-rings stay properly lubricated.

using my cordless screw gun, i've used it a couple of times to pump oil from my drain pan to a 55 gal drum and and once to pump contaminated gas from a boat's fuel tank. with the drill turning at bout 1300 RPM (assuming it is actually turning at the rated speed) and the pump lifting the oil about 3 feet at about 85-90 degrees, it would empty my 4 gal drain pan in less than a min. when my neighbor and i drained the tank on his father's old boat, we got 12 gal of liquid and bugs out in bout 5 min, but could have been faster if he didnt insist on pumping it into gas cans.

I like the gear pump submersion technique!! That is the ultimate pusher head, not to mention the fact, if you use the filter screen that installs onto that pump, you've got your first course filter, in the tank! Great for WVO freaks too!

The gear pump you are using can be submerged and requires almost zero suction capability to pump, all it's doing is sitting in a bath of fluid.... of course, your description, although unclear, indicates you're using a 3/8" pipe to suction with, un-submerged. In Bostons tank, if he installed an access plate, he could fit the unit in the bottom of the tank, put an upright or 90* motor on the plate to drive the pump with a shaft extension.

The problem Boston will have is, if he uses his 'fuge system, it will require greater pressures to spin the 'fuge to its rated efficient speed. Most auto gear pumps won't pressurize to that psi unless it gets to 3000rpm's or more, unless he keeps his lines much smaller. By his photo's, looks like at least 3/4", if not 1" hose. I think by guesstimation only, his 'fuge has 3/8" fittings at best.

Since you're already set up, can you analyze pressure of your set up with different rpms at an ambient temp...whatever that is for your area? Can you set up an accurate rpm counter on your motor? Anyone have a performance chart for a 350 oil pump? How about the high volume or high pressure performance oil pumps?

I kind of like the WMO link you presented, but I see a major flaw in the installation... the poster was using reinforced water hose to pump a 50/50 mix of WMO/diesel. The hose will certainly turn brittle under DFM and processed Dino oil of any grade and any UV exposure will only hasten degradation. Also, even though reinforced water hose is reinforced, it too is a "positive" pressure rated hose.... for pusher pumps, if used on a suction system, it will collapse....PERIOD!

If it's clear hose you want, remember, all clears are pvc(for our uses) and will rot out from diesel/oil solvents, but, use wire reinforced instead. The only problem you'll have with it is, it's hard to get a good seal in a positive pressure system, suction systems take care of themselves....but can air bound gear pump primes if it leaks too much on a suction system.

An alternative to using clear hose is to use a site gauge with rotating wheel. You still get to see it go through, but good A1 fuel rated hose will last a long long time.

It's less expensive to do it right first time out, than it is doing it two or three times down the road. Cheap isn't always better.

I really like those deep filters and the big water trap in line, now all you need is a magnet on the first particulate filter. The use of multiple gauges also takes guess-work out of the plugged filter scenario.

I'm surprised that some of the WMO folks are using a 50/50 mix. Isn't there a dilemma with coking, really sooty exhaust and power/performance degradation? Seems to me a 30% mix would work better... better meaning less power loss, coking and smoke.

BTW- for Klownifornian's, it's against the law to add any WMO to your fuel system.... KMG's!!!!!

Almost forgot!

I see people using teflon tape in their fittings systems.... it ain't diesel/oil/Dino rated and will melt out of the system. Use Permatex, forever soft....that is their #2 sealant.(The letter after the number only designated the packaging type-nothing else!) Hard sealant cracks with any vibration, soft sealant goes with the flow and is fuel/oil resistant. I find it unbelievable people... MECHANICS!!!!...use teflon tape anywhere! Remember, teflon tape is found in the plumbing section, not the fuel section!

 

[Boston]

Tom, I'm not so sure about what I'm doing with the centrifuge, it adds a lot of stress to the system as I said, but someone else, I think it might have been you mentioned that they remove carbon really well. Less soot=less coking. Also, I was always relegated to doing it more than once. Its a learning curve, everyone's got there pet ways of doing things and I've got to find that happy equilibrium that works best with the use of a combination of suggestions. I went with low micron filters cause I figure I used two each on a split system. Twice as many at half the flow = longer filter. Remember each of those two filters are in parallel not series.

Dave, I also thought of the submerged pump but was considering a engine oil pump. Thing is it seemed redundant. How many pumps do I really need. Although I love the idear of pulling instead of pushing through the system. Will oil filters not collapse if under negative pressure ?

Oh and Tom, the gear pump is 1/2" and the lines are also 1/2 hydrolic lines 3500 psi. The fittings are all black pipe and the sealant is high temp silicone.

I think I'm going to go with the two auxiliary bats and a larger alternator. I'd like two alternators but I want it running by the end of next month. I'll be welding up the exhaust system tomorrow, I think.

cheers
B

 

[CaptTom]

Tom, I'm not so sure about what I'm doing with the centrifuge, it adds a lot of stress to the system as I said, but someone else, I think it might have been you mentioned that they remove carbon really well. Less soot=less coking. Also, I was always relegated to doing it more than once. Its a learning curve, everyone's got there pet ways of doing things and I've got to find that happy equilibrium that works best with the use of a combination of suggestions. I went with low micron filters cause I figure I used two each on a split system. Twice as many at half the flow = longer filter. Remember each of those two filters are in parallel not series.

Dave, I also thought of the submerged pump but was considering a engine oil pump. Thing is it seemed redundant. How many pumps do I really need. Although I love the idear of pulling instead of pushing through the system. Will oil filters not collapse if under negative pressure ?

Oh and Tom, the gear pump is 1/2" and the lines are also 1/2 hydrolic lines 3500 psi. The fittings are all black pipe and the sealant is high temp silicone.

I think I'm going to go with the two auxiliary bats and a larger alternator. I'd like two alternators but I want it running by the end of next month. I'll be welding up the exhaust system tomorrow, I think.

cheers
B

Thanks for clearing up the hose sizes, they look really big in the photo, and the photo's also makes it look like a series system.

Although silicone, high temp or otherwise, is a great thing for gaskets and such, it isn't for high pressure systems. Fluid under pressure will find its way through and cause it to poop out like an o-ring without good torque on it. Permatex is best, and is used in certain fuel thread applications. There are better sealants for this application, however, it isn't used in the normal or average mechanics tool bags like Permatex is so not recommending it.

Lastly, a single hydraulic vane pump is what you really need in the system, with a metering device and by-pass. Vane pumps will give not only the necessary pressures to run the 'fuge, but will self prime and run dry...to a certain extent. Their only flaw is, they don't like high SSU's, thick is bad, so you will need to heat your stock for best performance.

Have fun-OUT!

 

[david_lee]

Tom, i think i have a pressure gauge lying around that i could use to check the pressures, but i know i dont have any method of checking the rpm at this time. money is getting tight now with the holidays coming up, so i dont think i will be able to get anything to check rpm anytime soon either.

my WMO setup is not anywhere close to complete as i have had to put it off to concentrate on college. the pump in the link i posted is an $18 oil pump for a small block chevy 350, and while it would be submerged in an oil pan in its designed application; i have no intentions of using it as a submerged pump, hence the sealing of the shaft. with the purchase of the oil pump from oreilly's auto parts, the fittings, pipe, and jb weld, i think i spent about $35 to build the basic working pump.

Boston, i see no reason you cant draw thru the filters. have you ever taken a filter and squeezed it around the center with equal pressure all the way around? it would require quite a lot of vacuum inside the filter and i seriously doubt that a gear pump running off a small electric motor has the ability to draw that much vacuum.

what are the specs on the motor you are using to run the pump?

 

[Boston]

240 W

pretty sure its 1750 rpm but I'm going to have to look it up. I've got some sprockets that fit the shaft and part of dialing in the pump might be to adjust the speed of rotation. But I'm still choosing a pump. Gotta go look up vane pumps.

At this point I also need to consider pulling instead of pushing through the system and drilling in that access port. It was always intended but now that the tank had been in use for a while I'm hesitant to apply a torch to it ()
and drilling a whole ( what was it, 8" ) is somewhat problematic.

The centrifuge is another unknown, I hate the pressure is requires for all the reasons you guys mention, high leak potential. But there are some folks who swear by them. Personally its been nothing but bad luck so far. Came obviously screwed up and then once I opened it up it was even more so. I'm thinking that the addition of the 5% bio-diesel will help prevent coking.

sounds like permatex is the stuff I need to go find today

anyway you guys definitely threw out some great info.
Thanks
B

 

[CaptTom]

240 W

pretty sure its 1750 rpm but I'm going to have to look it up. I've got some sprockets that fit the shaft and part of dialing in the pump might be to adjust the speed of rotation. But I'm still choosing a pump. Gotta go look up vane pumps.

At this point I also need to consider pulling instead of pushing through the system and drilling in that access port. It was always intended but now that the tank had been in use for a while I'm hesitant to apply a torch to it ()
and drilling a whole ( what was it, 8" ) is somewhat problematic.

The centrifuge is another unknown, I hate the pressure is requires for all the reasons you guys mention, high leak potential. But there are some folks who swear by them. Personally its been nothing but bad luck so far. Came obviously screwed up and then once I opened it up it was even more so. I'm thinking that the addition of the 5% bio-diesel will help prevent coking.

sounds like permatex is the stuff I need to go find today

anyway you guys definitely threw out some great info.
Thanks
B

If you use the vane pump as your one and only, put it as close as you can to the 'fuge. This makes it a sucker, and only a blower on a few inches of your system. Also, there is no real back pressure on a 'fuge, so, this too will eliminate some of the risks. Oh sure, there's a pressure increase due to fittings and hose/piping, but 'fuges we're using drop their product out the bottom via gravity feed, not because of pressure requirements. Remember, the only reason you need the pressure is to spin that ****** up, once at speed, the fluid just flows.... and yes, it will remove one heckuvalotta carbon in WMO.... you'll be surprised at the "dust" packed into the sides of that thing.

The mini-fuges we all like to use are not good at separating water, oh sure, it'll sling very small quantities out of oil just due to specific gravity differences, but, unlike "real" centrifuges, there's no place to dump the water. These are particulate filters only. Have no expectation of water removal as the water will only drain back into the oil as all the rest of the oily "fluid" does as it operates. The good thing is, if you have suspended water, it will help consolidate it back to free water.... which is very easily removed in you coalescers. If you want a real 'fuge.... well... expect at least $20k for a working one, 440V to operate and another $1k for plumbing. What do you want for $200 bucks???

The reason I suggest 8" is because anything less, and you can't stick an arm down there to do work. We could always go bigger, but there's no need to. 8" hole will give a tank your size, good access to most reaches. If it were my tank, I'd install an 8" plate either side the baffle. In the case of a single set up, install the access closer to the estimated dirty side of the tank... in boats, it's the low end of the tank. This allows for manual cleaning of the tank. Use piping instead of hose between the 'fuge and vane pump, this will eliminate some hose failure potential, so long as it's rigid and not subject to vibration.

Problematic?? Just get'r done! Try doing that to a stainless steel tank with a deck pressed on top and barely enuff room to fit the drill motor and bit 'tween 'em!! High torque drill motors like to break wrists when they snag! You got an easy day. Just remember to lube the cut as you go. Keeps heat down, filings in place and blades sharper longer.... don't stand on the hole saw either, let it do its job or you'll find yourself wrapped into the cord and bit....can get ugly fast. Use all available handles to hold the drill motor safely, no one handing look-aways and blapping to your beer drinkin' buddies when doing this. Respect your tools and you'll do good. If you can find a stand-up, deep neck press to use, do it there. The press will give you lotsa control....but yeah, I get all the reasons why you can't.

BTW- coking will be because all the oil isn't burning. Believe it or not, your diesel engine is too high speed and short stroked for WMO, and why people are mixing with regular diesel. Bio won't help either. Coke is unburnt fuel... or "almost" burned fuel. White smoke is unburned fuel.

That is why I asked the question of 50/50 v. 70/30 (diesel/oil). WMO burns reallyreallyreally slow compared to thinner products like diesel and very cold compared to kerosene/jet fuel. I have a friend who's been burning straight ATF and when he doesn't mix, it's a pretty gutless situation....not enough BTU's in ATF I think.

Have fun building that tank. I think you're on the right track and will be a big money saver when you get it tuned up.

 

[david_lee]

a vane pump does make for a good fit in your application so long as the fluid is pretty clean before it gets to the pump. i just wonder what kind of load will be put on your motor having to draw thru the filters. an example of a vane pump would be the standard ford power steering pump. it would be interesting to see how a PS pump would work for your application, but there are reasonably priced alternatives out there. These two might work for you at about $100 each here or here. they both have a max temp of 150F so you would need to keep that in mind when heating your tank. the first link looks to be the better fit for you. you can find their specs on grainger.com by searching the part numbers.

regarding your access port, does it have to be round? at that size a square would be easily cut with a cut-off wheel on a grinder. you can avoid having to fix the corners by finishing the cuts with a hacksaw blade.

 

[CaptTom]

a vane pump does make for a good fit in your application so long as the fluid is pretty clean before it gets to the pump. i just wonder what kind of load will be put on your motor having to draw thru the filters. an example of a vane pump would be the standard ford power steering pump. it would be interesting to see how a PS pump would work for your application, but there are reasonably priced alternatives out there. These two might work for you at about $100 each here or here. they both have a max temp of 150F so you would need to keep that in mind when heating your tank. the first link looks to be the better fit for you. you can find their specs on grainger.com by searching the part numbers.

regarding your access port, does it have to be round? at that size a square would be easily cut with a cut-off wheel on a grinder. you can avoid having to fix the corners by finishing the cuts with a hacksaw blade.

Better make sure that fluid is hot and pre-thinned with diesel, recommended use is for light hydraulic.

BTW- pre-thinned and mixed will also settle out a lot of the heavier contamination.

 

[david_lee]

definately needs to be thinned and heated (at least somewhat) before turning on the pump when using a vane pump. the vane pumps that are going to be light duty enough to be run on a 240 watt, 24v motor are not going to like thick fluids. that motor should be rated around 1/3 hp, correct? with the first pump i posted you should be able to get pretty close to the 100 psi mark you are looking for with a 50/50 mix heated to 150F

 

[Boston]

starting to love the vane pump idear
http://www.ebay.com/itm/W-S-vane-pu...?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item45fdc3957b#ht_500wt_717
any idea what this thing is
I'm all about the cast iron and steel parts cause they don't react with anything.