Anybody tried DIESEL HPR in their IDI?

[bbjordan]

A little bit of organic chemistry.

They sure want to distance themselves from "biodiesel", but they say it is made from animal fat. Hmmm...animals are not bio?
So it would appear that they start with animal fat or stearic acid and create a stearic ester.

The acid CH3(CH2)16COOH is called octadecanoic acid, but the old name is still commonly used. This is stearic acid. Starts like this:

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The red part gets removed and a Methanol or an Ethanol group gets added in its place. And winds up looking like this:

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Compare to diesel:

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Ok, so what about biodiesel? Well biodiesel covers a wide range of Methyl Esters usually from oil seeds like soybeans or canola.
The main fatty acids in the oils are oleic (56.80-64.92%), linoleic (17.11-20.92%) and palmitic (4.18-5.01%) acids. They start out like this:
Oleic acid

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Linoleic acid

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Palmitic acid

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As you can see they are similar, but different. The stearic ester is saturated (all the middle carbon bonds have hydrogens). Oleic ester is monounsaturate (it has one double carbon bond). Linoleic ester is a polyunsaturate ( it has more than one double carbon bond). Clear as mud now?

In the end, as fuel, they are all esters. Esters eat rubber. You may want to put a return cap o-ring or two in a jar of HPR and see what happens to them.

With a cetane rating of 75 you will probably want to retard your timing a bit to take full advantage of that. I noticed when I was running biodiesel with a cetane rating of 60 I had to retard the timing. I even disconnected the Cold Advance Solenoid because the engine just rattled too much!

You could try a 20% mix of HPR to #2 diesel and see how it goes...

 

[Koch13351]

I started a thread concerning this "Diesel HPR" last fall I think. I have run at least a dozen tanks of it in my truck, and I highly recommend using it, or at least trying it. It really smooths out the engine, and causes a very noticeable change in engine tone, being significantly quieter. I never did get around to doing an MPG comparison. I got slightly less black smoke from the exhaust on acceleration, and my cold idle haze was significantly reduced. Also, having a poor functioning glow plug system at the time, I did get noticibly easier starts. If it's available near you, I wouldn't hesitate to give it a try. I don't happen to have a Diesel HPR pump located close enough to me to be convenient to constantly use it, but I do top off with it whenever one is along my route.

 

[laserjock]

They sure want to distance themselves from "biodiesel", but they say it is made from animal fat. Hmmm...animals are not bio?
So it would appear that they start with animal fat or stearic acid and create a stearic ester.

The acid CH3(CH2)16COOH is called octadecanoic acid, but the old name is still commonly used. This is stearic acid. Starts like this:

You must be registered for see images attach

The red part gets removed and a Methanol or an Ethanol group gets added in its place. And winds up looking like this:

You must be registered for see images attach

Compare to diesel:

You must be registered for see images attach

Ok, so what about biodiesel? Well biodiesel covers a wide range of Methyl Esters usually from oil seeds like soybeans or canola.
The main fatty acids in the oils are oleic (56.80-64.92%), linoleic (17.11-20.92%) and palmitic (4.18-5.01%) acids. They start out like this:
Oleic acid

You must be registered for see images attach

Linoleic acid

You must be registered for see images attach

Palmitic acid

You must be registered for see images attach

As you can see they are similar, but different. The stearic ester is saturated (all the middle carbon bonds have hydrogens). Oleic ester is monounsaturate (it has one double carbon bond). Linoleic ester is a polyunsaturate ( it has more than one double carbon bond). Clear as mud now?

In the end, as fuel, they are all esters. Esters eat rubber. You may want to put a return cap o-ring or two in a jar of HPR and see what happens to them.

With a cetane rating of 75 you will probably want to retard your timing a bit to take full advantage of that. I noticed when I was running biodiesel with a cetane rating of 60 I had to retard the timing. I even disconnected the Cold Advance Solenoid because the engine just rattled too much!

You could try a 20% mix of HPR to #2 diesel and see how it goes...

Good description. The process is also known as saponification which as you probably guessed is how early soap was made. The only real reason to run the esterified fuel as opposed to the triglyceride is simply flow. The trigs cloud up much sooner than the free esters. There can also be mixing issues with #2 which is why most places will sell up to B20 and then jump to B100.

 

[hesutton]

Fuel from Palm oil... PALM OIL..... seriously???

This is what California thinks is better for the environment? Really? I swear, I grow less and less fond of California all the time.

Does anyone in the state government pushing for HPR have a clue of the very real impact that palm oil plantations have on the environment they are pretending to try and save? I'm no tree hugger and rarely give most of the BS spewing from eco - ****'s a passing glance... But, palm oil plantations are one of the biggest causes of man made deforestation and habitat loss. But, screw it.... that's Indonesia or Malaysia right? Not sunny California. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul. The hypocrisy is laughable.

Heath

 

[bbjordan]

HPR claims it's made from animal fat, so not from Palm oil.

Palm oil is still a problem tho. Below is a link to more info: The Problem with Palm Oil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3qd0D36Cow

 

[laserjock]

The hpr is animal fat not the plant oils I believe. The thing that has intrigued me has been algae as an oil source. It's not a food product so much so unlike ethanol from corn (which is stupid) it doesn't tie fuel to food supply. That is a recipe for disaster.

I absolutely agree with you that most people don't realize that all that's happening with most of these alternatives are robbing Peter to pay Paul. I actually was looking into setting up an algae reactor as a side project with thoughts of eventually scaling up but alternative liquid fuel seems to not be a priority with #2 at $2 a gallon.

 

[hesutton]

They use some slaughter house waste, but, the majority is produced from vegetable oil (rapes and palm). Reading Neste's literature, they certainly use, and from what I read, prefer the properties of the fuel produced from palm oil.

I haven't read anywhere that HPR diesel is produced exclusively from animal waste, nor have I read anywhere that HPR is never produced from palm oil.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying using/buying/liking HPR is horrible or anything.

It's just.... in my opinion..... the idiocracy of praising a fuel as an environment saving wonder while making the same fuel with a product that destroys millions of acres of forest annually is a joke.

Heath

 

[mblaney]

So HPR is a Soylent Green for our trucks???

The good thing about testing and promoting alternative products (fuel sources, electrical power...) is that it promotes research and development. The R&D will hopefully result in 'more renewable' resources. Similar to solar panels and wind mills - they are not the solution but as technology evolves maybe they will.

 

[bbjordan]

It's people!

It's just.... in my opinion..... the idiocracy of praising a fuel as an environment saving wonder while making the same fuel with a product that destroys millions of acres of forest annually is a joke.

I totally agree with you on that Heath!

So HPR is a Soylent Green for our trucks???

Ha Ha Ha! That crossed my mind, but I decided not to go there when I posted.

 

[idi_econoline]

On my second tank of HPR at the moment. And having occasional surging and power loss, which may not be related...... Just changed the fuel filter, and the contents were nice and clear.

Only difference this time is that I added Stanadyne Lubricity formula on this second tank.

Runs smoother and cleaner otherwise, but will probably go back to dino from now on.

 

[DaytonaBill]

They sure want to distance themselves from "biodiesel", but they say it is made from animal fat. Hmmm...animals are not bio?
So it would appear that they start with animal fat or stearic acid and create a stearic ester.

Well, I see a problem with that, bbjordan...

In post #11, the manufacturer says that it is mostly palm oil...

no mention of animal fat...

Sorry, not meaning to be confrontational...

 

[bbjordan]

DaytonaBill, you are 100% correct!

After reading the neste-renewable-diesel-handbook.pdf, I understand two things now:

1. The primary source is currently Palm Oil.
2. The process used to make the HPR is totally different than the Esterification process I attempted to explain above. HPR process result is an Alkane, not an Ester. The process is explained beautifully in Fig. 1 on page 4 of the Handbook. Gotta love colour coding!

As such, it should behave pretty much as Diesel, only better (except for energy density) as it would be more pure since it is synthesized from a consistent base stock. #2 Diesel is a longer carbon chain molecule, which gives it a higher energy density. It also makes it burn more slowly (lower cetane rating). The more carbon atoms in the chain, the dirtier it burns.

The Handbook claims the process is more energy efficient than the Esterification process. I'm sold. IMHO this is future, making synthetic fuel from natural gas and organic feedstocks. It's just a better process.

Confrontational? No. Thank you for forcing me to do my home work and read the Handbook. I am now wiser.

 

[DaytonaBill]

Cool!