Lets talk hot rodding 101 everyone...theory and practical too

[riotwarrior]

Ok so we have some very exciting and interesting things going on within the IDI world it would seem.

1st history...a alleged but known about 900HP monster IDI by Hypermax...OK I can by that why the hell not...I'm sure no one thought when Rudolf Diesel built his first engine that they would advance to the level they have...so ok...900HP but just a tad tweaky and unreliable

2nd 175-190HP stock....6.9- 7.3 IDIT...kewl...

3rd After market support by several manufacturers of turbos, exhaust brake, headers, cams, injectors, pumps, air filters, head studs yadda yadda yadda...you get the picture....

4th someone takes an idea and runs with it, building a reliable stock/lightly modified engine, won't dyno it and likely runs with the best of them....

others come along add this that and the other thing, dyno'ed and still not huge HP

nother build
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54224 we have seen pics of the C rings n such, nice build for sure!

NMB2 and the other Justin, then this other build with the main girdle, which BTW I want and think it to be a great idea, help stop any potential of cap wander latterally!

So that leaves me to some theory or potential build ideas of block machining etc....

1st weak point I can think of that troubles me more than anything else....efn FREEZE PLUGS...don't beleive me...ask others here will be their response I am sure...

2nd weak point, HG failure...ya sucks but it is what it is...lots of talk about this. A few have looked into getting custom ones, bla bla bla...it's been talked to death with little to no real answer as OF YET!

So I know I'm leaving out other stuff..but that's what this is a build thread to throw out some thoughts...

I for one beleive that the bottom end is a stout bottom end and require little to no modification, but...a BIG but, with increased cylinder pressure due to high boost or what have U, how about re thinking some of that bottom end NON issue,

I for one recall a few blocks machined in the main journal with a small groove leading outwards both ways from the main oil galley hole. See the picture...I have attempted to use MS PAINT to mark the area in RED and also indicate on the upper half of the grooved main bearing additional holes drilled to increase overall oil flow and provide a greater amount available. The groove was not very deep and did not go the edge of the main web but was about 1/2" -3/4" down from the main cap mating surfaces. Sorry but the pic is hand drawn for clarification not accuracy...

You must be registered for see images attach

Porting, and using spiral polished valves are a favorite method of mine, as are roller rockers...oh wait we don't have those....YET...some free HP by eliminating sideways thrust on the valve in the guide... plus you help alleviate guide wear.

shaved heads..only if needed...perfect square flat!

Now about Pre cups...hmmm...how does one get them out of the head first of all, what are they made of? How can one machine them for an increased fire hole and is that needed? Lets talk precups....

So standard machine principles applied, size main journals and square to block, then do the decks, if needed square and parallel, Groove the main journal area for better oil flow, screw in oil gally plugs, deburred block, deburred lifter galley (with screens epoxied in place in oil return areas)...I don't know if screens can be applied to our blocks but they can and are on gassers I have worked on.

Bores either sleeved and sized to new pistons or bored over...yer choice..

Resized rods, (turbo rods) for 7.3 only I suspect with polished and shot peened beams too,

I don't know if there is aftermarket ARP rod bolts or not?..anyone ????

shaved pistons to about 18.5 compression teflon coated sides, ceramic tops, no coating before pre assembly assembly..


I am not certain but a zero gap second ring? Anyone? If not machine 2nd ring groove for addition of oil ring scraper under the ring to provide additional sealing...or ...IDEAS...anyone?

Now once you have your pistons and rods all measured out and sized it's time to go and pre assemble measure all your piston ring depths and gaps....fit accordingly....

send out parts for coating....hmm....how bout cryogenic treatment too...Rods n pin, pistons, crank, cam and gears...hmmm....plus plus what ever you feel...

Ok so now we have this killer wildman engine,....so to speak...how the heck can we keep the gaskets in place between the head and block...

Machine block for larger stud? Is this possible? Anyone? Take a 6.9 block machine for 5/8 stud? and Torque down like crazy?????

Well I kinda started this lets hear ya'll ideas...screw in freeze plugs, what not...lets figure out what would really kick ass.....I am not shooting for a theorhetical HP level...no , no numbers...just talking machining, and assembly and add on parts no HP goal nothing...

 

[93cc7.3]

seems that hyper max kept they hg issues at bay with c rings that they produced but i am unsure if they are available still ....

since i am not an engine builder i have no wisdom to add

 

[racer30]

Well you have hit most of the hot spots, I was thinking with extra power pushing down on the crank that extra oil pressure would be good to keep from damaging the bearings. On my sprint car engines we put oil passage restrictors in the block to reduce oil volume to the lifters and use push rods with small oil holes to keep pressure up at the lifter because the full roller valve train dosen't need much oil. This restiction results in higher pressure to the mains and rods without flooding oil to the top of the engine where its not needed. I think roller rockers could be modifyed to work in the IDI but I don't think its that important at this level. The only other thing I am doing is cutting off the big weights on the rods. they do nothing for strength, then beam and balance. But thats mostly cause I cant stop myself from trying to lighten the rotating mas. I like the girdle just because it makes a already strong bottom end supper rigid. Custom exhaust manifolds, and some intake mods for intercooling tubing is nice to. I have always said alot of little mods add up to a good thing.

 

[93cc7.3]

ya its hard for me to say that little things dont matter cause everything does add up

 

[bayou]

i think im gonna be the test rat and try to have the block machined for a fire ring. because the precup is to hard to machine aparently?. but im hoping that will let me run high boost with 20to1 comp. to help the cold starts

 

[bike-maker]

I've spent lots of time working on/machining race engines and am well aware of all the little tricks used on them. But keep in mind that most of the modifications that happen inside a race motor are to allow the motor to spin freely (these could apply to an IDI), and survive at high RPM. The worst environment I saw for an engine were Sprint cars (like Brad's). Full throttle under load at 6000-8000 RPM for 30 minutes straight is ******* a engine.

As for the oil holes; all I've done in the past is drill them out to mach the size of the hole between the mainline and cam journals. If the oil holes were able to be added on the cap side of the bearing where the load is, it could be worth the effort, but probably doesn't change much when adding them to the upper bearing. The area where you can gain a little flow is by chamferring the oil holes in the crankshaft so the oil has an easier time getting from the main bearings to the rod bearings. This is a possibility, but a really tedious process because if you slip with the die grinder, you screw up the journal on the crank.

Putting oil restrictors in the top end of the engine keeps the oil in the pan where it belongs instead of flooding the valve covers - this happens with high RPM. A true race motor (aftermarket block) has a priority-main oiling system. This pushes oil to the main and rod bearings first, then to the cam and top end. Normal stock engines oil the cam first, then the main and rod bearings.

Has anyone seen the main caps walk on an IDI? You can see denting on the mating surfaces between the cap/block when you take the caps off - once again, I've seen it many times, mostly due to a whole lotta RPM. When that rotating mass gets to swinging around too fast, it will actually stretch the bolts to the point where it opens up a slight gap on the main caps; main studs would probably be the best insurance against this happening. A girdle could be cheap insurance though. The combination of both should result in one stout bottom end.

Roller rockers are something I'm surprised I haven't seen yet on an IDI. The amount of power they free up depends on how good/bad the valve train geometry is; the farther from parallel the valve guide and pushrod are, the worse the geometry is. As an example, on a 460 Ford (which has fairly bad valve train geometry) can gain as much as 15 horsepower by switching to roller rockers. The other benefit, is if a common roller rocker could be made to fit, it would allow one to change the rockers to a higher ratio and gain valve lift; nobody try this without verifying adequate valve to piston clearance - there might not be enough room for it.

Screw in freeze plugs sound like a good idea until you've tried to tap a hole that big with a NPT tap; you actually have to strap the block to something heavy like a forklift and use a cheater bar on the tap, then hope you can keep the tap straight... But not impossible.

Head work is never a bad idea; swirl polished, back cut valves, a good 3 angle valve job and a mild port job will all help. Porting should be limited to a mild clean up and polish, anything more and you need a flow bench to make sure you are actually improving flow.

IMO, the biggest stumbling block in a IDI build up is head gaskets. If the head gaskets sealed well, there is way more room to add more fuel and air until something else starts failing.

 

[bike-maker]

Temporary hi-jack; Brad, you runnin' a 360 in your sprint car?

 

[racer30]

My car was a sportsman. we ran a 365 max, all engines in the class are flat top,Iron head engines, with 2 3/16 injection. Its limited to Factory heads 202 max intake valve. No porting, No Dry sump systems. must have a pan fed oil system. No titanium accept valve spring locks, We can lighten the rotating assembly But cant knife edge the crank. 6 inch rods ok, solid lifter only roller rockers OK no shaft type. No radio's ,no engine electronics accept gauges and or engine monitor.(records RPM, EGT in real time). No driver ajustable shocks or wing. They have been messing with the rules, The last few years, I havent ran my own car in ten years. I drove for a friend for a couple years then just crewed for another friend for a few more. Had my son racin outlaw dirt karts for 5 years. We were going to start racin sprints with him driving when My house was robbed and they got all the racin Kart stuff and 7000.00 of My shop tools. No insurance, So that killed the racin, Now the wife's out of work and starting to her third year of college. So no money to do much till she gets a new job. Dam almost sounds like Im wining.....But I can say I still have two complete cars less engines Just waiting in the back yard.

 

[Diesel JD]

Is there really any proof that even with studs and everything else right the head gaskets fail under high boost? Recall that even with the Flatlander disaster, according to Mel it was not the gaskets but the wrist pins that finally let go. I believe NMB2's explanation of the incident with his engine makes sense being that the combustion pattern was much different than intended with the piston installed wrong. Also it sounds like Hypermax is interested in producing more C-Rings if there is the demand for them, but I really doubt I'd spend that kind of money for a problem that may not exist with studs overtorqued and a set of upgraded gaskets and very good surface prep. I'm waiting to see if Racinndrummin, NMB2, and the "6.9performance" builds over at PSN can hold that kind of boost long term. The main reason no one has pushed this kind of boost before is because stock turbos can't make 25 or 30 PSI within their efficiency range, most people do not have fab skills comparable to NMB2 or Racin' and those who do have chosen not to pursue this kind of build. As fr as I'm concerned we really don't know what the boost limit is for a stock set of head gaskets with studs torqued over, intercooled and with a turbo actually designed to run that kind of boost.

 

[towcat]

I....... most people do not have fab skills comparable to NMB2 or Racin' and those who do have chosen not to pursue this kind of build. As fr as I'm concerned we really don't know what the boost limit is for a stock set of head gaskets with studs torqued over, intercooled and with a turbo actually designed to run that kind of boost.

I beg to differ.
I NEED A TRUCK THAT WON'T LET ME DOWN when I am out crossing the country on the interstates and highways. I do have years of racing machine work experience that goes into my very pedestrian motors and I am happy with the output my IDI gives. The last time I did a major on my '92 was well documented back in 2005 and the powertrain has remained problem-free since then. Even my track Buicks are built the same way. A turbo v6 regal is capable of running down to 9 seconds in the quarter. It's dialed back to 12.0, so I don't have to run a cage and run consistently. Making it through eliminations and going home at the end of the day is the win I like. If I can take a blowhard's car and title in the process of doing so, that's the gravy. I also will dissect the car to learn it's secrets...if any.
My truck is very capable of doing what I ask it to do. I don't worry about others who do drive it in the rare instances I do let someone else drive. Unfortunately, with my health the way it's declining, I do let others behind the wheel more often than I ever have. Every person who have piloted the '92 will tell you the same thing....well mannered, good power for hills and passing, tames unruly trailers and stops with poise and control. What more can I ask of the truck other than being a dependable beast?

 

[riotwarrior]

Well sounds like some good ideas here, I like the idea of restricting oil to the top end, that's kinda key to keeping the bottom end going.

Back cut valves, and such that's a must have too..

How bout assembly ideas? Anyone?

 

[93cc7.3]

Ok this 100% off the wall but is there a way to reverse the flow of the heads without building new heads I think ford did a cool thing ruing the turbo AND exhaust in the center of the motor on the new 6.7 seems that we could then strap on a huge turbo and not worry about lag ... like I said prior I have no major engine building experiance so its just a off the wall idea

 

[91idi]

Ok this 100% off the wall but is there a way to reverse the flow of the heads without building new heads I think ford did a cool thing ruing the turbo AND exhaust in the center of the motor on the new 6.7 seems that we could then strap on a huge turbo and not worry about lag ... like I said prior I have no major engine building experiance so its just a off the wall idea

With a db4 running it clockwise would be an option wouldn't it?

 

[Diesel JD]

I beg to differ.
I NEED A TRUCK THAT WON'T LET ME DOWN when I am out crossing the country on the interstates and highways. I do have years of racing machine work experience that goes into my very pedestrian motors and I am happy with the output my IDI gives. The last time I did a major on my '92 was well documented back in 2005 and the powertrain has remained problem-free since then. Even my track Buicks are built the same way. A turbo v6 regal is capable of running down to 9 seconds in the quarter. It's dialed back to 12.0, so I don't have to run a cage and run consistently. Making it through eliminations and going home at the end of the day is the win I like. If I can take a blowhard's car and title in the process of doing so, that's the gravy. I also will dissect the car to learn it's secrets...if any.
My truck is very capable of doing what I ask it to do. I don't worry about others who do drive it in the rare instances I do let someone else drive. Unfortunately, with my health the way it's declining, I do let others behind the wheel more often than I ever have. Every person who have piloted the '92 will tell you the same thing....well mannered, good power for hills and passing, tames unruly trailers and stops with poise and control. What more can I ask of the truck other than being a dependable beast?

I don't think we disagree Calvin... I'm saying most of the people who have excellent fab skills have your attitude about the truck....they are not going for all out power with it, they want it a bit more peppy than a stock IDI but still stone cold reliable. My understanding is that these "special" headgaskets will not contribute to DD reliability. We should see if Racin' and NMB2 get acceptable life out of their stock gaskets before we assume the Fel-Pros and Victors can't take it. We're in uncharted territory with these HO builds so we really don't know what it takes to make them hold together. That's what I think.

 

[dakotajeep]

I was wondering how you disagreed...looks like similiar mindsets on a capable and reliable pulling rig.

Thad