TO THE PEOPLE RUNNING SPECTRUM STYLE AIR FILTERS......

jay22day

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http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/compressed-air-storage-volume-d_843.html

There example for atmospheric air storage is as follows.
Va = (2214.7 psia) (1.76 cu ft) / (14.7 psia)
Va = 265 (cu ft)

So

Va=(14.7psia)(7.3l)/(14.7psia)
Va=7.3l... duh...

Va=(14.7psi+15psi boost)(7.3l)/(14.7psia)
Va=14.75l

This formula is for compression of gas at atmospheric pressure - this is of no value to forced induction conversation; for a turbocharged application ALWAYS (with the except of no-load/idle) has higher than atmospheric pressure present in the intake, and cylinders.

the "duh" after the VA=7.3...really ignorant move if your asking me to explain something for you and teach you so you can understand better.

there is no magic formula for "engine boost pressure = equivalent output in Liters (E.G.engine/volume)

You can use CFM to determine at what point the engine is breathing twice as much air as the N/A engine breaths. Thats as close as you will get and will never be measured or determined with psi.

But how much does that really add up to? It seems that with a well matched turbo engine combo, PSI and CFM would basically be interchangeable..

...But seeing as IDI's have a very narrow rpm range under working conditions it seems the point is vary moot.

PSI and CFM are never interchangeable as they measure two completely different things.

To say that the subject of pressure and cfm is moot because of a diesels "narrow" rpm range is to say/act as if turbo's dont have a function-able value or effect on a diesel operation and performance. When ever talking about turbocharging diesel or gas, CFM and PSI are of the utmost importance and the most important measurements needed in initial design.

I could write a book on forced induction, but that's not what this thread surrounds around and i dont want to flood it with forced induction information.

Its simple and this is the best and most simple way i can explain it :

PSI and CFM are to completely different forms of measurement that are measuring completely different things.

PSI CAN NOT measure the amount of air entering an engine.

E.G.
A. a COMPLETELY stock 2.0 turbocharged 4g63T pushes 14.5 psi from its turbo
B. a banks non waste-gated 6.9/7.3 kit pushes 10 psi from its turbocharger

which turbocharger pushes more air?

Can you answer this question correctly? Why or why not?
 

PwrSmoke

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Marmot: Clean air is important but changing filters at 9K, without justification such as an extremely dirty environment or a restriction gauge indicator, is a big waste of your money and absolutely no benefit to your engine. If you read the attached article, there is a great statistic from Jon Wake... most of the dirt that makes it past your filter into the engine gets there in the first 10 percent of the life of the filter. Filter efficiency improves with use and that first 10 percent of use is when the efficient improves by 1-3 percent. If you change filters too often, then it never gets to that point where efficient has improved. Bottom line a NEW filter filters WORSE than a used one. There is no harmful effect if the engine wants a little more potential airflow. Most engines live that way all their lives because few intake system deliver every CFM the engine would like. Clean is most important. More airflow is only important to power production.

Filter restriction can effect power but the general statistic is that most intake systems are built with 20-40 percent more flow capacity than the engine needs to make its rated maximum power. When the filter gets ordinarily dirty, you will not notice it in daily driving but you might notice a drop in power on the dyno. When you get significantly into the dirty area, you will notice the power drop more and more. Fuel economy is effected on diesels by filter restriction, more with our style of engine than the modern electronic diesels, so that is a reason to be more vigilant. In that case, a restriction gauge is your friend as most tests have shown if you change the filter at a lower restriction, you err on the side of economy. Most engine require the filter to be changed at around 20" of water (max intake restriction). If you change it at 15", you err on the side of economy. Exactly where you change it is somewhat engine dependent and variable. Some engines start with some restriction even with a new filter so if that was the case, you'd extend that out a little. The answer is simple, you test with a fresh filter and then change when the gauge reads about 10 " more (give or take).

To hammer home the impact of a 1-3 percent improvement in efficiency as the filter loads up, I'll post this again:

attachment.php
 

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Hydro-idi

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Aside from all of the constant bickering from "certain" members who just can't seem to help it, this has been an informative and interesting topic. I too have a similar setup that Idioit is running on his rig. Even have the same filter just because this was the only one that was "on the shelf" and fit in my engine compartment. The filter doesn't seem to have the quality that I am looking for. Looking back at the filter, the element paper is extremely thin and the wire mesh doesn't even hold together like it should. The filter spins inside of the rubber clamp sleeve and will certainly let dirt in if this gap is not siliconed like I did on mine.
After reading what Jim has to say....and thanks for all of your useful information as always BTW, I think I will be switching to the AEM dryflow air filter. Autozone can order me the correct size/filter that will work with with my custom air intake setup. Why risk it IMO.
This is the one I am thinking of buying. AEM also has a very helpful dimension chart to help you find the filter that will fit your application.

http://www.aemintakes.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=21-2038BF
 

IDIoit

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Aside from all of the constant bickering from "certain" members who just can't seem to help it, this has been an informative and interesting topic. I too have a similar setup that Idioit is running on his rig. Even have the same filter just because this was the only one that was "on the shelf" and fit in my engine compartment. The filter doesn't seem to have the quality that I am looking for. Looking back at the filter, the element paper is extremely thin and the wire mesh doesn't even hold together like it should. The filter spins inside of the rubber clamp sleeve and will certainly let dirt in if this gap is not siliconed like I did on mine.
After reading what Jim has to say....and thanks for all of your useful information as always BTW, I think I will be switching to the AEM dryflow air filter. Autozone can order me the correct size/filter that will work with with my custom air intake setup. Why risk it IMO.
This is the one I am thinking of buying. AEM also has a very helpful dimension chart to help you find the filter that will fit your application.

http://www.aemintakes.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=21-2038BF

seeing the link, this is most likely what i will be running!
i want to route it so its in the center of the engine, so it will pull all the "cold air" it can through my scoop.

FMIC first ;Sweet
 

Dieselcrawler

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I to have had spectre filters last less than a month before I seen holes threw it. granted these were just the round paper ones, and it is on my f100, but still. after seeing that, I don't even run spectres on my derby cars... I put a sock over the intake. they filter better.

my dually runs an AEM. love it so far.
 

Hydro-idi

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Brian, here is the AEM filter dimension chart that I was referring to earlier. I just ordered the 21-2038BF from Autozone and returned the crap spectre at Kragen. Should be coming in on Tuesday. Thanks again for the heads up about these filters. You probably just saved me a turbo wheel.

http://www.aemintakes.com/search/univcone.aspx
 

jay22day

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I to have had spectre filters last less than a month before I seen holes threw it. granted these were just the round paper ones

Personally i would never run a "paper element" filter as i doubt their durability. Those filters are much lower quality than the oil cloth/metal mesh style of filter.

What materiel is your stock f100 filter made of dieselcrawler? Id would expect it to be a reasonable quality cloth filter of some kind?
 

X-NRCan_IDI

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Personally i would never run a "paper element" filter as i doubt their durability. Those filters are much lower quality than the oil cloth/metal mesh style of filter.

So what about the 6637 which seems to be one of the most popular filter upgrades in the diesel world? That's paper media, and there are lots of people running them cumulatively for millions of miles and many years and seem quite pleased with their durability/reliability.
 

PwrSmoke

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Personally i would never run a "paper element" filter as i doubt their durability. Those filters are much lower quality than the oil cloth/metal mesh style of filter.

What materiel is your stock f100 filter made of dieselcrawler? Id would expect it to be a reasonable quality cloth filter of some kind?

Methinks you need to do more research or you won't make such broad statements.

"Paper Filters:" To start, incorrect terminology. They are made up of cellulose fibers, usually from wood pulp. A cellulose filter uses a resin treatment to bind the fibers into a rigid structure after it's pleated and then it's potted to the seals with a type of glue. They are very durable in that form. The average OE or brand name replacement filter is a pretty good piece overall.

OCG filters can be very fragile if not carefully cleaned. In fact, a decent quality cellulose filter is a bit more tolerant of compressed air than an OCG element. OCG use wire mesh because they HAVE to use wire mesh to support the element. They are essentially sheets of cotton gauze matting sandwiched between two layers of wire. I have seen them built back when (at K&N in California) and taken a couple apart. Without the wire, the gauze pretty much falls apart.

"Quality" in a filter takes in many elements, the first being the sealing surfaces. Do they fit well and properly into the housing? Do the seals remain pliable after heat aging and exposure to under hood chemicals? After that, the media comes into play. Just because a filter uses wire mesh (because it has to), that doesn't automatically make it a better filter. I do know that K&N uses the absolute meat materials in their seals. Why? Because they are "lifetime" filters. They may have to endure 10-20 years of service being cleaned repeatedly and lots of heat aging. One engineer at a replacement filter manufacturer told me in interviews that they worked around a five to eight year lifespan for the sealing media on their standard line of filters.. with a bit of a safety factor. The premium lines of filter use correspondingly better materials. For most people, the air filter is replaced within that period, however I have seen filter that lasted much longer and were OK. The most vulnerable elements are the ones with a material like a foam for the seal, like a panel filter. They don't really fall apart but they get hard and may not seal well in the housing. This becomes an issue mostly when the filter is repeatedly removed and replaced for inspection. If left along, they are generally OK.

The other quality aspect is the media and that usually comes down to the efficiency and flow rate per inch of media. It then becomes a simple cost choice. There is some fantastic filter media out there, most of it made by specialty companies and not the company that manufactures the filter, from straight cellulose to cellulose/synthetic blends to pure synthetic and the price increases at each step. Form there, it's how they are applied. Some filters have a great, very efficient media and brag about efficiency as a result, but they have too little of it... few pleats. Both factors result in lower flow and a short life cycle because the filter gets restricted much more quickly due to less media. Many manufacturers offer a premium line of filters, which might have the same actual media as in the cheaper choice, but they have more of it (sometimes significantly more) and maybe also have a better seal material. The construction methods are usually pretty constant and generally similar with all manufactures. A brand name company usually has a constant level of materials and construction readily visible to a purchaser. The OE designs the air box, so the replacement filter mfr. has to generally match what the OE did, but often the aftermarket will give you a few extra pleats.

As I said before, OCG filter have much lower efficiency than a a cellulose filter or many of dry filter of various types. If you live in the city, in a clean area, good enough might be good enough. You are taking in more dirt but with little dirt in the air, it doesnt matter much. Any maybe you are making a conscious choice to place flow over efficiency. As long as you make that choice with forethought, knowing the pros and cons, fine. If you are easily sucked in by advertising, do your homework if you live in a place where there is dust in the air. The problem is you will find it hard to find efficiency info on some of the aftermarket performance filters. That is by design in some cases because the efficiency is so poor. Also, if you do see a rating, find out if it's a coarse of fine sit test. If it doesn't say, it's likely coarse. A filter that can do 98-99% on coarse will only do 95-97% on fine. The fine dust challenges the filter more.

Again, the cost of a highly efficient filter might be airflow or service life. This is more an issue with an element in the stock housing. In a performance or custom setting, just increase the filter size to as big as you have room for... problem solved.

In a quick look to find an advertised efficiency of Spectre filters in general, couldn't I found a lot of complaints and one big lawsuit, the finding below;

"In a Spectre Performance lawsuit lodged by a competitor, it was alleged that the company made false claims concerning its air filters and intake systems, specifically the products’ fuel economy, air flow, filtration, horsepower capabilities and approval from the California Air Resource Board (CARB). A jury in the lawsuit found that the company had falsely advertised its air filters and intake systems, and in Dec. 2011, a federal court released a final judgment and permanent injunction affirming that the company had indeed misrepresented the efficiency, performance, and benefits of these products.In its opinion, the court held that Spectre Performance falsely represented the fuel economy of its air filters and intake systems, which were designed to "save gas" and provided with packaging expressing that efficient air filters can provide "up to 10% better fuel economy," resulting in fuel savings for the consumer. The court found that not only were these claims misrepresented, but expressed that research revealed that air filters have little to no effect on a car's fuel economy. The federal court also addressed claims by Spectre regarding the independent laboratory testing of its Speed By Spectre hpR filters, which were advertised as having been "proven to filter 99.6% of particles." The court found that the company did not select an air filter from a production run for these tests, and instead used a specially designed test filter, providing no basis to find that any of the filters actually sold to consumers would have the same efficiency as the test sample. Furthermore, the court found that a "Dyno Gains" graph used by the company on its product packaging falsely indicated that replacing a car's filter with a Speed by Spectre hpR filter would result in a 35% increase in horsepower."
 

towcat

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be careful where you are headed. you have been dinged for personal attacks once. one more time and you're done here. sometimes it's better to let it die than to go personal.
 

KZF250

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This thread kind of reminds me of discussions about Pod Filters on CV Carbs on bike forums...

I don't have enough experience yet with these trucks to comment much so I just take it all in and decide for myself at some point. What I can say is my truck had a old Banks system installed back in the mid 80's at 17k miles that included a K&N filter...still running the same stuff today at 200+K.

Not taking anyone's side here but here's my .02. Iggy Button can be a great personal preference for some folks that get tired of some posters...that being said it is a public forum and if you demand freedom of speech and lack of censorship in everyday life ...remember it is a two way street.

As they say, opinions are like ********...everyone has one and they all stink, some not as bad as others and eventually the air clears out.
 
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PwrSmoke

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Where to start here... how about definitions :

1) No, you are incorrect, it's not "paper" it's a cellulose material that is more accurately called cellulose fiber. There are many products made from cellulose or wood pulp. Certain paints have wood pulp in them: are they "paper?" Chewing gum has cellulose in it... is that "paper?" How about ice cream, which has cellulose ("I'd like two scoops of chocolate paper, please?") Some sponges are made of cellulose and cigarette filters may be mostly cellulose. Cellulose filters have been called "paper" since they first came out in the '50s and when filter media did more closely match the definition of "paper" than it does now. The term has held on since. It's a common colloquialism and I am more or less tilting at windmills trying to change common usage. The only reason I make such a pedantic distinction here is that in the context of these types of discussions, "paper" is used as a disparagement. It's "only" paper! I underwent a "conversion" on this after seeing how cellulose media has evolved over the years, how well it's engineered and so on. There is a LOT of technology that goes into that remarkable product. There are pro and cons to it, of course, but a brand name cellulose air filter packs a lot of value and efficiency into a relatively inexpensive package. I won't argue about the term unless it's used as a disparagement. I am the cellulose air filter Don Quixote, I guess ( : < ).

2) I will caution you not to present advertising materials as "evidence" of much of anything. You know, or should know, that an honest manufacturer is going to put it's best foot forward and present what will be, at best, a biased or incomplete account. At worst, they distort, grossly exaggerate, fabricate results and get sued, as Spectre apparently did. Now K&N is a great company, with whom I have had many dealings over the years. They have the balls to present all their test data openly, even though some of it is open for critical debate from guys like me. Their engineering lab is second to none. I've been there, I know and I have been in regular contact with their engineers since the '90s. Their products are well built and engineered. They know their stuff! My only criticism is that they have built their foundation on a technology that I think is optimally less suited for an everyday vehicle than a race car. It's debatable, I admit, because the 2-ply K&N filter media does fit into "industry standards" for efficiency, but at the low end of it. If only everything they made was 3-ply and highly efficient... I'd shut up. The efficiency issue is really only a major point in situations where the vehicle is used in a challenging, dusty environment. Personally, given that the air filter is the door to outside contamination getting into my engine, I prefer to have that door opened to the least degree possible. I am willing to sacrifice a few CFM at the upper end in that .5% (optimistically, I am now an old guy) of the time I am at WOT, versus the 99.5% of the time my engine is sucking in dirty air. If I need a performance, high CFM filter, I adapt to as large a high efficiency element as needed (or that fill fit) so I can have MORE clean air. The simple efficiency solution to the OCG efficiency issue is use the foam sock!

3) RE Banks and K&N: I know the very earliest Banks kits used a K&N. By the late '90s and into the 2000s they were not. I asked and was categorically told they were NOT made by K&N but they wouldn't tell me who did. I have no clue who is doing it for them now. In any case, all the OCG filter on Banks kits I have seen, appeared to me to be at the K&N quality level, so Banks likely specs a robust filter from whoever makes them. As OCG filters go, they meet a high standard of quality. In some cases, the available space for a filter dictated an OCG filter to meet airflow needs. The OCG has one of the highest per-inch-of media flow rates out there and if performance is your primary goal, it's one of the best media out there. Just not anywhere near the most efficient at filtering dirt.

4) Your attachment makes my case. Take note of the initial and final efficiency of 97.35% on COARSE dust. You would drop 3-5% of that on a fine dust test and it is the opinion of many engineers in the field that the fine test is a more accurate and useful test than coarse. They presented a case that put me in their ballpark. The other notable thing in that 1999 test (there are newer test examples out there): take note of how the filtration improves between the initial test and the final. The initial test is a fairly fresh filter. It used to be a perfectly new filter. Now, the latest protocols have a certain amount of test dust applied before the initial reading is taken. That 1999 test is likely the old method. The final efficiency it taken at the filter's maximum restriction, listed at 10" of water. If you go back to that chart I posted, you can see in plain terms how much less dust that change represents. This applies to ANY air filter.


5) ANY restricted filter will pull dirt thru if it's neglected long enough. In fact, the OCG filter is more prone to this than paper and it will happen at a much lower restriction. Does anyone remember the Cummins Tech Bulletin about OCG filters, pull thru on turbo diesel and warranty denials? In any case, the occurrence of pull thru is a maintenance one, not of design. It only happens in extreme cases where a filter is quickly loaded (a Sahara desert dericho, for example) and the operator isn't clued in, or with extreme neglect over time. In any case, the answer is a restriction gauge (just google Filter Minder) that the operator actually looks at once in a while, or frequently as conditions dictate. I knew some guys when I worked for Land Rover who had many African expeditions under their belts. One story I heard was about having to change air filters every 100 miles or so!
 

PwrSmoke

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I'm still here, so if some wants to talk more, put this into another thread or start a new one, either is OK by me.
 

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