Synthetic 5w40....ok in summer temps?

[PwrSmoke]

CaptTom: As I said above, you are mistaking the winter part of the grade, 5W, for anything meaningful on the hot side of the equation. The only danger with a wide spread between the two grades is that the oil may shear down a little, but between the syn base stocks (all 5W40s are syn, whether GpIII or higher) and the higher quality VII (Viscosity Index Impreovers) and PPDs (Pour Point Depressants), that's not a likely scenario. All the PSDs (HEUI) are known "shear-monsters" but they seldom can beat down a syn to any dangerous level. The tests I see show that sometimes they can beat it down into the upper 30 grade level towards the end of a run, but that's not dangerous in my book. From what I've seen and experienced myself, the IDIs aren't shear prone, beyond a normal level at least, so I don't think we have to worry about that without our old tech powerplants.

To answer your question, "best" is relative but in a warm climate I still don't see any worries with a 5W or 10W oil. If you do, at least the warm temps and syn base stocks will minimize the efficiency losses with a 15W, so feel free to run with it. Rotella also has a 10W40 T-5 semi-syn that I see all the time at Tractor Supply. It's about $20/gal there where the full-syn 5W40 is $24 (IIRC). Might be a good compromise to calm your nerves ( : < ).

 

[RLDSL]

After all these years, folks still get really confused because of all the fancy terms that get thrown around about oil, but to put it in a nutshell, a 5w-40 oil is in essence a 5 wt oil with the film strength of a 40 wt at temp, but it is still a 5 wt oil. over time and with excess heat , the viscosity improvers will break down and THEN that 5 wt can slowly begin to thicken up and approach the range of a 40.

I've been using and selling synthetics for well over 30 years ( and they won't let me on BITOG either the amount of misinformation being thrown around is amazing, Myth Rules.
A 5 wt is fine in these things if they are tight and you live in a northern climate, but an older engine living in a warmer range and at's not a great idea . A 15w-40 would be best. I run a 15w-40 amsoil and it's been in there for over 70k miles with a bypass filter . Most recent test showes it to be fine aside from a little bit of *thickening* but that I expected to see after running 450 deg oil temps while grossing over 18k out west with a busted fan clutch ( actually I pretty well expected it to fail after that but it's still going, Imhappy to get away with it just thickening up after running those temps )

Find a nice chunk of desert where it's about 115 deg or better outside and hook up to a nice heavy trailer and then make a run with a 15w40 synthetic, drain it ( for goodness sake save it don't dump it ) and then refill with a 5w-40 synthetic ( or use both dinos if on a budget )and make the same run and make notes of your oil pressure between the two.. ( hint, I've done this in the past) the results will be pretty predictable.( nhave a friend do the driving if you think you can't trust yourself to push it just as ******* both)

The big advantage of a 5 wt comes in for those living in SERIOUSLY cold climates , and when you consider the pour point of Amsoil 15w-40 diesel and marine is -44 deg f , the need for using a 5 wt is almost nill. By that point you are going to need to be plugged in anyway, but a 5 wt synthetic is an option for those in the most northern parts of Canada and Alaska where you can drop down to -80 and worse

 

[jhnlennon]

Damn straight there is alot of mis-information. Alotta he said she said, but UOA's dont lie. The only way your gonna know anything is by testing, and from the hundreds of UOA's Ive seen, its taught me that modern day oils have advanced greatly. Its also showed me that the cheaper widely available oils do a great job and synthetics are really a waste of money( especially since almost all oils formulated these days have at least a part of the base stock synthetic).

As far as running a 5w40 in warmer climates, it wouldnt scare me any. As long as it meets HDEO specs, I will pour it in. I dont run my oil long enough to ever have to worry bout it. As an example, I maintain a powerstroke box truck that gets maintained every 5k miles. SINCE DAY ONE it has ran 10w30 Kendall diesel oil and is currently at 345k miles with no major engine trouble what so ever. It never grosses under 15k pounds, and is driven like its stolen. Seems to be doing the job

 

[PwrSmoke]

The main thing to remember is ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. The viscosity of the oil is chosen according to the situation and the engine. Better only applies to a specific set of circumstances.

There are no 5W40 dino oils. Unless you are one that considers Gp III or XHVI a dino oil.

Next, there is no "5 weight oil." All the numbers are grades, a range of viscosities. You should know that. Yes oil, even 15W40, starts off as a mix thinner base oils that is enhanced with additives. Even that 15W40 Amsoil. A typical 10W30 is a mix of 4-5 cSt and 6-10 cSt base oil with VIIs and pour point depressants. I don't have a typical 5W40 blend hand but I know they use some 4-5 cSt blended with heavier base stocks as well. A lot depends on the base oil chosen. A 15W 40 will have 5-6 cSt oils ("10 weight") with thicker oil as well. And we could talk about HTHS as well. Unless you go with a single grade oil, which uses only one base oil viscosity, you are going to have this type of blend. Whether or not an oil will shear down to it's base oil viscosity is dependent on the quality of the additives, most certainly. And yes, an oil with a wide gap in it's two grades, MAY shear down lower than one with closer numbers over time. The big question is, will it and how quickly? I've seen PSD that have sheared 15W40 of various brands down to low 30 grade in 4K miles. Depends on how it's used and, again, according to the quality of the sum of it's parts. A great oil like Amsoil's HDD, which is rated as a 5W30 is just about impossible to shear.

As to your 115 degree desert example, sure, you need to think about what oil you use. BUT my truck has towed at 18,500 GCVWR in 115 degree SoCal desert temps (I lived in the Anza Borrego Desert) numerous times with 10W30 oil. I didn't have an oil temp gauge in it at the time, but the truck is still here to talk about it and my oil pressure stayed right at it's normal range. I reject your example based on oil pressure. At the same (relatively sane) oil temps, both oils will be approximately the same viscosity and oil pressure. Any significant difference is going to be due to other factors. Yes, if you are clueless enough to run your oil temp way above what it should be, you might see a difference between the two oils but that is so far out of the norm it's not worth discussing for most of us. The driver is supposed to protect his machinery and if a driver sees dangerous conditions, then he takes steps to mitigate them.

On that topic, to me, using extreme examples as an indication of "better for you" has no bearing on the average Joe that never sees those conditions. It's all according to the use of the vehicle. More than what you need (viscosity, for example) isn't by definition "better." It's the old race analogy that people fall for. If some race team uses something, that means it better for their grocery schlepper? Not hardly. If you beat the snot out of your truck and run extremely high oil 250+ temps all the time, you should be running a 50 grade oil, not that wee water 40 grade. If your truck is on the road all the time, then 15W40 is a good choice becasue the oil is hot all the time. If it's a short hopper that spends a significant amount of time in a warmup phase, and doesn't do much heavy work, or if it lives in a cool climate, a lighter oil is in order. The basic rule is, "As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."

 

[CaptTom]

Fella's, you've answered well, best I've ever seen or read.

I think some of this discussion could go to the tech board, mostly because there is always a question about oils to use.

Of course, we all have to make proper choices for our outsides temp ranges as it affects engine operating temps. I think the reason for my question was parallel to the originators question, but most answers given are typically the standard 5W-30 syn type answers. Since I'm a warm climate hermit, I really appreciate you fellas expanding on the normal answers given, which are not very informative.... kinda like that danged e-pump thing... I'm just one of those ducks that when I ask for the time, I just gotta know how that particular clock works.

One thing for sure though, if my going back to Delo 400 15W-40 doesn't disappear off the stick.... I'll never use Rotella again.... no matter how it's rated. I'll letcha know after my oil change. I had to dumpt some Delo 15W-40 LE into my block just to get me home. For no cause other than curiosity and my habits of doing so, I checked my oil levels and it was almost off the stick. After hours late, so I had some LE in the shop I just dumped in to get me home. No apparent leaks, no smoke out the back and the mixed brands still where I topped it to after 40 miles. Still wished I'd written down the mileage on my oil change... now it's driving me nuts.

I don't like changing my oil grades, so I think I'll just stick with the 15W-40 even in our "apparent" cold weather, which isn't compared to many of you. I've used the Delo brand for years with never an issue, even for my customers. I went to Rotella only because of the higher corrosion protection they had. If this Rotella thing is becoming a dilemma, I don't think I'll sell it to my boaters any more either.... becomes a trust issue, and I hate the voices.

Rethinking a good product with maximum protection is going to have to be job #1 next week. The link OldBull referenced that Sutton posted may be outdated, however, it has some real eye opening data associated with it.... basically condemning both Rotella-T Tripe protection(was my fav until recently) and the new Delo 400 LE that I recently purchased for a modern tier II engine- recommended by dealer. No matter how outdated the list, it still references some better oils still available. Sadly, the info comes from a Dodge site....bleck!....that's asking for $35 bucks to see their stuff. Although my complaints of the Rotella Triple is obvious, justifiable or not, Rotella's Syn rated as best with some of the others.


Again, I can't thank all of you enough for the more in-depth answers to the oil's question.



I love this place!

 

[jwalterus]

I have tried running Rotella, I burn through it too quick

I now have been sticking with "National" brand 10w-40 ($1.99/qt at Menards normal, goes on sale for $.75/qt with rebates once a year) year round and have to add 1/3 what I did with Rotella between changes

 

[CaptTom]

Which Delo were you using? 400 15w40 or LE?

In SoCal we don't have the farm or trucking stores the MidWest or even NorCal has. The Big oil dealers in town, their only business, sells oil at a premium. As an example, the 400LE I just bought from one of them soldbit to me, with a resale license, at $18.00/gal. Unacceptable! The discounters aren't much better. I also refuse to buy store branded when there's little comparative data available.

I will try the 400 15w-40 again and see what happens. If it's the same result as rotella, I'll need to look further into the mechanical and try another oil.

Thanks for your personal results. It will force me to keep an extra eye out. Also have PO maintenance receipts,so will try to see what he used.

 

[PwrSmoke]

CaptTom: Try WalMart. Seriously! Some of my best oil deals came from there. I don't believe you can go wrong with DELO. In the midwest, it's a bit harder to find than out west but the 10W30 DELO is virtually impossible to find here. Unfortunately! I'm not all that brand conscious but very price/value conscious. To me, the upper-middle price ranges is where the value is and DELO, Rotella, Valvoline Blue, Castrol Tection and all the similarly priced oils "big company" oils are pretty much all in the same performance category too. I'd use any without hesitation. I sorta limited myself, however, with this fixation on 10W30. Fortunately, I can indulge that fixation with the T-5 semi-syn Rotella that is readily available and I stock up when it's on sale. If I was doing 15W40, life would be simpler and a bit cheaper.

All I can say about consumption is that there was no difference for me between DELO and Rotella.

One comment contrasting the two is related to oil cleanliness from the bottle. I just finished some stories on bypass filtration. During the research and interviews for that, I was given information on the cleanliness of new, ****** oil. I was fairly shocked at how dirty new oil could be. Literally, you can have used oil that's been filtered by a bypass system that has fewer contaminants in it than new oil. As part of the research, I was given a list of oils that were all tested for ****** cleanliness by the same lab on the same optical particle counter. So far, I have not been allowed to post all the info but I'll cheat a little here and list some of the brands, since the list was pretty HDEO heavy. The listing shows the ISO cleanliness codes. I will just ask you to Google "ISO Cleanliness Code" if you are not familiar with it. The Donaldson site has a good explanation. In any case, the lower the numbers, the cleaner the oil and the difference from one number to the next is about 50%, so one number is a significant change. Anyway, here are some highlights.

Motorcraft Super Duty 10W30- 20/19/16
Motorcraft Super Duty 15W40- 20/19/18
Rotella T-6 5W40- 20/19/16
Chevron Delo 400- 19/18/17
Mopar MaxPro 15W40- 23/21/16

There are multiple tests for each oil and I averaged them into one number each. The DELO was consistently the cleanest and the Mopar the dirtiest.

Finally, I also have some tests on bulk oil that make the Mopar look sterile clean. It's a known industry problem but at the retail level there is a lot of carelessness about tanks and such.

 

[PwrSmoke]

I have tried running Rotella, I burn through it too quick

I now have been sticking with "National" brand 10w-40 ($1.99/qt at Menards normal, goes on sale for $.75/qt with rebates once a year) year round and have to add 1/3 what I did with Rotella between changes

I was going to alert you about National because I thought I read something bad about them in the PQIA's tests (Petroleum Quality Institute of America) but I was incorrect. It wasn't that brand but for anyone that's interested, you can go to the PQIA website and read up on various tests. They shop the shelves at various places, bring home the oil and have it tested. They have issued alerts on a large number of oils that were absolute crap. All were no-name, bargain brands but they were all made by some blender who may blend for a lot of others under other names. Unortunately, they have not tested any HDEOs as yet. Go to: http://www.pqiamerica.com

 

[CaptTom]

WOW! That's some great gouge!

So what's your favorite by-pass filter?

 

[PwrSmoke]

Not sure what you mean by "great gouge?"

I have tested two systems and like a few others. The ones I have used are both from Racor, the earlier LFS and the later ABS. The LFS was 10U absolute an 8u nominal (u for micron). The ABS has three optional fitlers, 10, 5 and 3u absolute. It's a really great "depth" filter and even can filter out moisture as well as oxidation byproducts (the beginnings of sludge and varnish). It looks like the old TP filter but isn't. Both of those are a true bypass filters, i.e. they divert a certain amount of oil flow for fine filtration. Another method is called parallel flow and a company called Pareto Point makes some. About the easiest to install there is and no danger of diverting too much oil flow, as you might with a bypass system. Parallel flow uses the restriction of the primary filter to divert a certain amount of oil to a bypass filter. Pareto uses an Amsoil elements because the restriction in the bypass filter is crucial to the correct amount of flow. Nothing wrong with the remote, 2-filter setups like Amsoil sells either and they use a variation on the parallel flow thing.

 

[TomA]

This is my own thinking on oils and not based on any actual facts but I will throw it out there for food for thought.

Firstly on oil grade, the factory recommendation for my 6.9 was for 30W straight grade oil. I realize oils have come a long ways from 1986 so a multi-grade may be fine. I live in a climate where it rarely gets below 32 so I run 30W. I choose to lubricate my engines with oil not polymers or thickeners.

Secondly on brands, I used to run Delo 400 but when they changed the label I became concerned about changes in the additives for the newer engines. I used Rotella for a while but after reading negative comments I decided to change to Walmart's Supertech oil for diesel engines. Although information i sketchy, it is my guess it is closer to the old (outdated) Series III rating. It is my guess that all the major brands have reformulated their oils the meet the low emissions standards for newer engines. While these oils may be fine for the new generation of engines it is my guess that they might not be best for older engines.

Just my $.02

Tom

 

[CaptTom]

Not sure what you mean by "great gouge?"

I have tested two systems and like a few others. The ones I have used are both from Racor, the earlier LFS and the later ABS. The LFS was 10U absolute an 8u nominal (u for micron). The ABS has three optional fitlers, 10, 5 and 3u absolute. It's a really great "depth" filter and even can filter out moisture as well as oxidation byproducts (the beginnings of sludge and varnish). It looks like the old TP filter but isn't. Both of those are a true bypass filters, i.e. they divert a certain amount of oil flow for fine filtration. Another method is called parallel flow and a company called Pareto Point makes some. About the easiest to install there is and no danger of diverting too much oil flow, as you might with a bypass system. Parallel flow uses the restriction of the primary filter to divert a certain amount of oil to a bypass filter. Pareto uses an Amsoil elements because the restriction in the bypass filter is crucial to the correct amount of flow. Nothing wrong with the remote, 2-filter setups like Amsoil sells either and they use a variation on the parallel flow thing.

Gouge is a military term meaning information.... sorry, done out of habit. 32 years of habitual verbiage sometimes oozes out of my pores.

I like the idea of a parallel system, we have fuel polishing systems that work similarly for fuel tanks, but they are true independent systems. Racor is also a favorite of mine for fuel systems, although there are others that work real well, at three times the cost and lack of visual convenience. I'm going to switch out my engine mounted filter with a 500... but then again, it isn't my top priority right now. I'll spend time on that after the oil system and before that hydroboost....etc.

The oil by-pass is probably more to the top of the priorities list. I like clean oil. My 6.0 is changed ofter enough to where there's only a slight sootiness to it, without a by-pass. I figure it helps the EGR system a little more, eliminates additional soot in the intake and innercooler and less abrasion of course.

My Detroit's the same way. 10 years on the rebuild and still no smoke out the back... although, there's oil in the bilge... leaky buggers.

 

[PwrSmoke]

I was Army 40 years ago and I don't remember that term so perhaps it was from another branch. That or I wasn't paying attention. I remember Detroits in boats too... I was an Army sailor, a snipe in fact, and twisted wrenches on a lot of them. Not that remember a whit of that now. The vessel I was on had a mix of 6-110s and 3-71s but we worked on a lot of LCMs and LCUs with 6-71s.

 

[CaptTom]

I was Army 40 years ago and I don't remember that term so perhaps it was from another branch. That or I wasn't paying attention. I remember Detroits in boats too... I was an Army sailor, a snipe in fact, and twisted wrenches on a lot of them. Not that remember a whit of that now. The vessel I was on had a mix of 6-110s and 3-71s but we worked on a lot of LCMs and LCUs with 6-71s.

My boat is an x-Navy Utility boat. I'm Navy, but the term gouge is used in survival school aka SERE. Can't tell you exactly how the term came about, other than to possibly use as a cover word as a POW. My original MOS was a navigator, but the last 28 years as a boat fighter. Some of our craft, like the PBR had 6V-92's in them. Our old patrol craft had 8V-92 twin spoolers and some were stretched to accommodate the 12V-92's. The engines were great, because like the LCU/LCM's, the craft were designed to carry very heavy loads- in our case fuel and ammo, in yours trucks and tanks. Although LCM/U's weren't high speed, we were designed for speed, yet it was very difficult to do. Now everything is build for speed with less armament and armor potential. High speed diesel everything... but there's a trade off. We didn't use the 3-71's either, our gensets were Onan's, very reliable power, less noise for patrolling.

Did you know that Army has more boats than Navy?

When I was recalled, I was on a Joint crew. It was a good time. The Army fellas had way more military bearing, but we were smarter. Wait for it..... wait for it.... waaaaait fooooorrrr iiiiit.......