my dyno numbers are in.

[towtruckdave]

obviously you missed something.

Ya that must be it.

The part that kind of makes me feel bad for you is that you seem to actually believe you are making these numbers. This is what you seem to be missing: your dyno results are seriously flawed. Think about it! I could do a pull in 2nd gear, come up with over 1000 ft/lbs of torque and then pretend, um I mean formulate, that torque at some rpm I pull out of my butt, 3200 in your case, and come up with 609 horsepower.

Why do you keep editing your post every time you are caught in an inconsistency? Everytime I re-read your posts, they are different.

This thread has me bummed out because as long as I have been a member here, I have always held you in high regard, and I respect your abilities as a builder, so it is terrible to see your credibility crash and burn because of this stupid dyno run. The run is flawed because not all variables have been accounted for, not because we are a bunch of meanies.

But c'mon, your truck runs great, and nobody is disputing that.

 

[DeepRoots]

On 0-60 mode my truck pulls around 10 consistently

Yeah, mine too. with lesser 3.55 gears, a lesser Turbo, and the same transmission.
Granted I weight 700lbs or so less than you, but I also have well under 100hp from what you are showing.
This video was with a worn out c6 trans. Truck is a good bit skippier with the zf5.
Not to bad at any rate for pushing 200k miles.
I'm not trying to "one up ya" I'm just saying that with all the power you've got, there must be something wrong with your setup (clutch slipping?).
My truck is a wore out work truck, with a moose pump, a crappy junkyard non-wastegated turbo, and highway gears.

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[DeepRoots]

double posty goodness

 

[flareside_thun]

DR, I am so jealous that your rig will spin the tires......

 

[letsfindout]

Anywhere close to Typ4's neck of the woods? If he really wants to silence the nay-sayers, I'm sure the OB community can make it happen no matter where he goes.

I hoped when I posted in the early pages of this thread that this was a great step forward for the IDI community. Now, the more I read, I am left with even more questions.

I'm sure others have mentioned this before...but did anyone else kinda find it a little odd that, out of the blue, Ken himself showed up around here? I mean, I've seen a few call out threads begging for customer support along with brand bashing sessions and never saw word from him. Not even a peep even about the Hall of Shame. Why show up now? Not trying to bash the guy, but he has had numerous opportunities to defend his product and offer his side of the story. Oh and the simple "they installed it wrong" as seen earlier in this thread (if I recall correctly) isn't an excuse I find satisfactory.

Maybe he doesn't have the time? I don't know. I do know, however, that I certainly wouldn't want bad PR floating around about my harvesting business for instance.
From NMB2's posts saying he has and will continue working closely with Ken, it has started to cast a shadow toward DPS being a driving force behind this. I hope we are just over analyzing the situation...

In fact, I really hope NMB2 doesn't disappear...I'd sure like to hear more of his side on all of this and continue his build for all of us to see. Furthermore, this post is not meant to be in favor of moose OR dps products (I've never been involved with neither one).
I myself welcome the idea of competition between the two to innovate more products for these engines. Because, without aftermarket support, the IDI community WILL fade away in history...

-Dave

Wow, gone for a few days and everything goes to hell, lol.

I'm going to clear a few things up -

- The reason I started posting back on this board is NMB2 has been keeping in contact with us the entire time his engine project has been going on. After putting down dyno numbers I figured I'd up my account to publicly tell him good job, and help answer any questions and/or misconceptions that people may have.

- His pushing of my company's products has not been compensated for in any way. He has a good running setup, tuned properly, and made good hp numbers with it. Would it be nice to see dynojet numbers as well? Sure, but most in the tuning business know that if you want the most accurate reads possible, mustang or superflow are the way to go. An actual load dyno, not an inertia dyno will give you the best measurement. The nice thing about dynojets is that a lot of guys have them mobile, and they are a good way to compare multiple trucks at an event. Easy to set up, as they do not require a lot of electricity, or a large water pump, cooling towers, etc, etc.

- I have not been on the forums for quite some time simply because we are too busy in the shop. Not to downplay the forums, but I have simply not had the extra time to play around posting on the internet. The average workday here is 12-13hrs. By the time we're done, the only thing anyone wants to do is go home, get cleaned up, and get to bed so we can do it all over again tomorrow

- As I stated before, if you have an actual problem with our product(s), call the shop. I've seen mentions of 'brand bashing' posts in this thread, but have yet to find someone who actually has a legitimate problem and who has called the shop not gotten taken care of. Does it sometimes take longer than it probably should for us to get back a hold of customers? Used to. Normally now, call backs happen within hours or if a message is left late enough, the next day. (see above paragraph) If people call the shop, they get taken care of. Yes, improper installation is one of the main causes for pump/injector problems. We also inform people that when they install the injectors, if it smokes the timing will need to be bumped a couple degrees. Is it our fault if our advice gets ignored? It turns into our problem, because a bent customer (especially one that posts on the internet) tells way more people than a happy one does. What about the ones that have smoke/idle issues that call the shop, we tell them to bump the timing, they call back in a week saying it's still not running right. When asked if the timing was bumped, the answer is no, "I was told I shouldn't have to." So, following advice from someone who didn't even build the products is is our fault how again?

- Mel and I do NOT have this "war" going on the people seem to think. I like Mel, have met him personally, and have no problems with him or his products. The target market for the two of us is different. If we were that focused dominating the idi market, you'd see ads up all over the place. We are up to building and shipping on average 5 pumps and 7 sets of injectors a week. I'm happy with that. Are we making a killing on them? Of course not, but we ARE providing a service and products to help an engine market that seems to have gone by the wayside and been forgotten about by most all other companies. With the new products we will be releasing this summer, idi's will be able to make hp/torque numbers in Powerstroke territory, and actually stay together while doing it.

- Since its release over 6 years ago, our turbo pump has gone through 4 major revisions. As with anything else, there was always room for improvement, and using the results that were coming in, we made changes and updates to the design and specs along the way. A pump built 5 years ago will not be comparable to one that's been sent within even the last 2 years. I'm not surprised at all by NMB2's torque numbers, as those numbers should be achievable using any other pump/injector set that we send out. I'm going to answer the question before it's even asked - Do I wish we could offer a free upgrade for the first pumps? Yes, but it's just not financially possible. We have absorbed all the R&D costs of the parts while keeping the price of the pumps and injectors the same since they came out.

NMB2, don't sweat it. Any time you push the envelope there will be naysayers at first. It's just like debates that get started when you start talking about Mustang vs Dynojet, and whether hp can be measured or not. People will argue with you 'til they're blue in the face or their fingers are bleeding on the keyboard. Best thing you can do is If you ever get a chance, back up the run on a dynojet, and who cares if some people don't believe that one either. You can't please everyone all the time, but you can take solace in knowing that they're all now playing catch-up.

- Ken

 

[Ididriver]

Wow, gone for a few days and everything goes to hell, lol.

I'm going to clear a few things up -

- The reason I started posting back on this board is NMB2 has been keeping in contact with us the entire time his engine project has been going on. After putting down dyno numbers I figured I'd up my account to publicly tell him good job, and help answer any questions and/or misconceptions that people may have.

- His pushing of my company's products has not been compensated for in any way. He has a good running setup, tuned properly, and made good hp numbers with it. Would it be nice to see dynojet numbers as well? Sure, but most in the tuning business know that if you want the most accurate reads possible, mustang or superflow are the way to go. An actual load dyno, not an inertia dyno will give you the best measurement. The nice thing about dynojets is that a lot of guys have them mobile, and they are a good way to compare multiple trucks at an event. Easy to set up, as they do not require a lot of electricity, or a large water pump, cooling towers, etc, etc.

- I have not been on the forums for quite some time simply because we are too busy in the shop. Not to downplay the forums, but I have simply not had the extra time to play around posting on the internet. The average workday here is 12-13hrs. By the time we're done, the only thing anyone wants to do is go home, get cleaned up, and get to bed so we can do it all over again tomorrow

- As I stated before, if you have an actual problem with our product(s), call the shop. I've seen mentions of 'brand bashing' posts in this thread, but have yet to find someone who actually has a legitimate problem and who has called the shop not gotten taken care of. Does it sometimes take longer than it probably should for us to get back a hold of customers? Used to. Normally now, call backs happen within hours or if a message is left late enough, the next day. (see above paragraph) If people call the shop, they get taken care of. Yes, improper installation is one of the main causes for pump/injector problems. We also inform people that when they install the injectors, if it smokes the timing will need to be bumped a couple degrees. Is it our fault if our advice gets ignored? It turns into our problem, because a bent customer (especially one that posts on the internet) tells way more people than a happy one does. What about the ones that have smoke/idle issues that call the shop, we tell them to bump the timing, they call back in a week saying it's still not running right. When asked if the timing was bumped, the answer is no, "I was told I shouldn't have to." So, following advice from someone who didn't even build the products is is our fault how again?

- Mel and I do NOT have this "war" going on the people seem to think. I like Mel, have met him personally, and have no problems with him or his products. The target market for the two of us is different. If we were that focused dominating the idi market, you'd see ads up all over the place. We are up to building and shipping on average 5 pumps and 7 sets of injectors a week. I'm happy with that. Are we making a killing on them? Of course not, but we ARE providing a service and products to help an engine market that seems to have gone by the wayside and been forgotten about by most all other companies. With the new products we will be releasing this summer, idi's will be able to make hp/torque numbers in Powerstroke territory, and actually stay together while doing it.

- Since its release over 6 years ago, our turbo pump has gone through 4 major revisions. As with anything else, there was always room for improvement, and using the results that were coming in, we made changes and updates to the design and specs along the way. A pump built 5 years ago will not be comparable to one that's been sent within even the last 2 years. I'm not surprised at all by NMB2's torque numbers, as those numbers should be achievable using any other pump/injector set that we send out. I'm going to answer the question before it's even asked - Do I wish we could offer a free upgrade for the first pumps? Yes, but it's just not financially possible. We have absorbed all the R&D costs of the parts while keeping the price of the pumps and injectors the same since they came out.

NMB2, don't sweat it. Any time you push the envelope there will be naysayers at first. It's just like debates that get started when you start talking about Mustang vs Dynojet, and whether hp can be measured or not. People will argue with you 'til they're blue in the face or their fingers are bleeding on the keyboard. Best thing you can do is If you ever get a chance, back up the run on a dynojet, and who cares if some people don't believe that one either. You can't please everyone all the time, but you can take solace in knowing that they're all now playing catch-up.

- Ken

its nice to see you posting here on oilburers ken
i agrea with ken here you cant compare his old pumps or anything to his newer ones wich nmb2 used on his build once again thats like comparing apples and oranges
atleast hes here on oilburners with us telling us what hes doing with his build to help the rest of us out and not building it in complete secert
i for one belive what nmb2 and ken are saying and am offley glad to see an idi making big numbers makes me wish i had the time to do a nice build like that
also glad theres atleast the one company dps suporting our old outdated engines atleast he hasnt pulled the plug on his stuff for idis like most everybody else right?
im acually thinking about getting some dps injectors and pump seem good enough to me im not trying to make huge number 210 and id be more than pleased
and ken do you care to tell us what your going to be realsing this summer?

 

[Dave7.3]

Thanks for coming back and clearing that up for me, Ken. With all of the talk making these forums buzz about this lately, some of the later posts were bringing about theories in my mind of foul play. I can accept from your response that it is not the case.

I'm pleased that your business is doing better on the customer service end these days as NMB2 has also indicated. I do realize that some situations are merely out of your control, but the fact that you are at least able to be reached for support a little more readily now makes a difference to me.

On the topic of a "war" between Moose and DPS, that is not what I was getting at. I was thinking more-so of just having the selection in the IDI market between the two to keep things on the cutting edge. With your promise of more IDI products on the way, I am excited as hell for what the future holds. Maybe we will see the big numbers that Hypermax layed down years ago? Who knows. I'd kill to see it though.

NMB2, I meant to ask, did your time your engine with a meter of any kind? I know my truck runs pretty sweet right now but heck if I know where the timing is exactly.

 

[Diesel JD]

NMB2 timed his motor by ear. I checked the numbers here at New Year's for him. My memory is a little bit foggy on the exact numbers but they are a couple of degrees more advanced than I run with the luminosity timing. The main thing that was really different between the DPS pump and my stock reman other than pushing a lot more fuel was that the timing stayed basically at the 1400 RPM setting as far up the band as I dared to push it. Typically a stock IP starts to retard the timing a lot more as you push the throttle in. I thought the timing was a bit advanced but his truck sounded great and I am not a professional so I just told him awesome truck, my meter says it's a bit advanced but dealing with that is up to you if you want to deal with it. I was very impressed with the fuel system, no leaks, no misfiring, nothing out of the ordinary. I'm certainly curious about what a DPS pump would do to my truck. On the other hand I probably should have more of a budget to play with before I get started, not because the DPS stuff is questionable but because I think I might already be pushing my luck with my head gaskets. 65,000 miles with no coating and reused headbolts pushng closer to max boost....makes me a little queasy. Good work Ken and glad to see you back.

 

[DeepRoots]

DieselJD.... food for thought:
You can run more advance if you disconnect the cold idle advance.

 

[DeepRoots]

DR, I am so jealous that your rig will spin the tires......

You should hear the car it hauls to the track

 

[88 Ford]

NMB2 timed his motor by ear. I checked the numbers here at New Year's for him. My memory is a little bit foggy on the exact numbers but they are a couple of degrees more advanced than I run with the luminosity timing. The main thing that was really different between the DPS pump and my stock reman other than pushing a lot more fuel was that the timing stayed basically at the 1400 RPM setting as far up the band as I dared to push it. Typically a stock IP starts to retard the timing a lot more as you push the throttle in. I thought the timing was a bit advanced but his truck sounded great and I am not a professional so I just told him awesome truck, my meter says it's a bit advanced but dealing with that is up to you if you want to deal with it. I was very impressed with the fuel system, no leaks, no misfiring, nothing out of the ordinary. I'm certainly curious about what a DPS pump would do to my truck. On the other hand I probably should have more of a budget to play with before I get started, not because the DPS stuff is questionable but because I think I might already be pushing my luck with my head gaskets. 65,000 miles with no coating and reused headbolts pushng closer to max boost....makes me a little queasy. Good work Ken and glad to see you back.

Wow that's funny! I just read a post by Dave Sponaugle over at FTE where he said he runs his pump a lil bit advanced. He said it it allows the piston to be pushed down for a longer period of time by the combustion during the power stroke.

Also, how do you think that the DPS pump kept the timing advanced like that through the whole rpm band?

 

[88 Ford]

DieselJD.... food for thought:
You can run more advance if you disconnect the cold idle advance.

Does taking it off keep it advanced through the whole rpm band or just at idle?

 

[DeepRoots]

I don't understand your question....
or maybe you don't understand the function of the parts in question.
During a cold start, the idle speed is faster and the timing is advanced slightly.
These are two separate things. The idle speed is faster due to that lil solenoid that pushes up on the throttle. The cold timing advance is one of the two plugs on top of the IP (the other is for the fuel shutoff solenoid). It pushes the advance arm on the driverside of the pump. Btw, this is why your truck rattles more when you start it cold.

When cold, if you have the timing advanced too far and the advance mechanism on the IP pushes it further it can be bad. Feels kinda like when you start to run out of fuel, the engine gets random revs when it should not.
My solution was to unplug the advance on the IP as it is not needed.


I just wanted to say the word "advance" once more....

Drew

 

[DeepRoots]

On another note, while looking at your signature....
Why the hell would you bore out your cylinders .001?

 

[GOOSE]

I am in Moab, Utah right now.

Just so my words cannot get twisted, I'll post this here.



Firstly, I will tell you that my attitude is probably a mixture of my ambien, and the stress of moving across the country. Now that I'm on the road and fairly calm, I will write this message.

I get pissy over "simple debates" because I provide all of the proof in the world and people like you always have an excuse as to why its not right, or your theory on how it is another way. It gets old. I could care less if you called me a bad person or names, I am from a forum called Pirate4x4, I'm sure you have heard of it, there is nothing you could say to me on here that would hurt my feelings.

Me calling you ignorant is not uncalled for IMO because you are acting ignorant, plain and simple.

You mention that you are writing this because people are sick of reading this crap, This is my first time logging in, in a few days and I have 7 PM's. This one from you, 6 others from older members and newer members agreeing with me, and asking me not to leave, they understand where I am coming from with how some of you are handling this,which they note is typical behavior. So I am not the only one that feels this way.

You mention me ******* people off, you said it youself, we shouldnt get pissed off over a simple debate. So if i shouldnt get pissed, nobody else should, right?

Not a single one of my claims are unsubstantiated Heath. My claims have 10x more bearing than yours, or anybody elses on this website. I have 5 dyno pulls, videos, 3 cross country trips towing, I pull my offroad truck regularly, and I have a few members that have witnessed my truck.

That is more than ANYONE else here can provide, so for you or anyone else to question me, ****** me off. Do not think for one second I NEED this website, or help from anybody on it. I am on it simply to help members get power from their old IDI, make a few friends, and prove that the cap isnt a measly 200rwhp

EDIT:

Furthermore, I am over the DPS vs Moose debate. I have no desire to swap Moose parts on, or anything like that. As far as I'm concerned this is a total package build that I BUILT, not Ken or DPS, I just use some of his parts. I will not engage in ANY sort of DPS vs Moose debate or anything other than direct questions about my truck/motor. Its not worth it to waste my time arguing about sh*t that doesn't even matter. I won't even entertain the questions anymore, its all a phishing technique.

EDIT AGAIN:

Just thought I would throw this picture up from today beings I am so big on proving stuff. I know there are a majority of people with IDI's that cant do this unloaded, let alone 14,000lbs

thats the elevation showing on my display. That is pulling 5%-7% grades in 5th through new mexico on the 550 earlier today. Strong winds too, and alot of throttle left, power limited by keeping EGT's in check. I could really use an intercooler at this altitude. GPS speedo and gauges dont lie.

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(pulling flats, trying not to get tickets, or blow my trailer up lol)

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I love that dash man It is refreshing to see the "Made In USA" on a quality electronic piece.