Hose Woes ... Could it be ... FRAPPIN' ULSD?

[Warwagon]

Hi men,

Hope all is well with you all. I haven't been active on the board in quite some time, been busy as a one handed wall paper hanger ... long story, nobody wants to hear it anyway, so I'll get on with it.

I finally got a chance to get some work done on our van. She's been laid up all winter long with a oil in the water/water in the oil problem. Not much H2O contamination in the oil, luckily. Only a tablespoon or so at most. I had just changed the oil , ran it less than 200 miles and noted a bit of clotting on the dipstick. Oil was still black, but no frothing due to H2O... so...

I pulled the cooler figuring it was O-rings again. But before I broke it down, I tested it. Hell's fire, it held right up to 60psi for an hour. The job that was done at Darren Tosh's was holding up just fine - Thanks men. With new gaskets we put it back in. Let's just say that Kathryn now has an appreciation for what Nick and I went through on a hot summer's night a few years back in Darren's garage.

I then thought of the H2O pump as a leakage source. You know, around the top and bottom 2 bolts that go into the timing cover. Pulled the top two, and son-of-a-gun, a mixture of coolant and oil on the shanks of those bolts and danged little RTV! I never pulled the water pump during the rebuild, so I figured I'd let it develop. Develop it did. So we pulled the water pump, installed a new one, and gooped the snot out of the bolts that require it prior to installation. Filled her up with water in preparation to flushing the system.

Should be good to go, right? ... NOT with my luck.

As soon as we fired her up I backed it out of the shed to begin the flush. She's not leaking water, but D2 is pouring off of the engine near the bellhousing. Shut her down, went to the house and watched Die Hard - something had to get vicariously killed at his point, or I was gonna riddle that rig with holes myself.

After cooling off for 2 days, I went out and began the pageant of pulling the dogbox, turned on the key to let the red pump do it's thing and to my amazement, there were several return lines seeping fuel. Not at their connections, mind you, but in the middle. It was as though the fuel had made them permeable, hundreds of tiny pin holes under the woven sheath. Additionally, the rubber return line that runs off of the back of the engine and attaches to the hard line back to the tanks was piddling too.

The rest of the hosing on this rig isn't leaking at this point, nor is the I/P. Any bookies on the board wanna make mark on how long it takes for them to join in on the owner persecution. Right now, with the way things go around here, I'll put up my $.25 at 100-to-1, AGAINST...me.

When I rebuilt this engine 6 years ago, I put all new hoses on it. Return line kit from DIS, and the fuel lines were from NAPA - the "diesel rated" stuff. Has the fuel chemistry changed that much from the LSD days so as to allow the "new and improved?" fuel to eat the rubber? I simply HATE having to do jobs multiple times, as my life does not have the time for it! Who has hosing and a return line kit out there that uses rubber that this "NEW" fuel will not DESTROY? I'm willing to replace them, again, but DON'T want to do it a THIRD time in the near future, as this is a ROYAL PITA in a van with a turbo!

Any suggestions would definitely be appreciated at this point, I've about had it. This has got to end.
Mark

 

[Diesel JD]

As far as the fuel hoses the supply lines and return lines, hard and plastic are ok with biodiesel D2 ULSD, WMO, WVO VO, kero, whatever. Those hoses in the return line kits are supposed to be made of good stuff but I'm not real sure anymore. I just replaced the orings, caps and rubber hoses on one side of the engine where it was leaking something awful...(bad I know, should have done the whole thing) but those hoses were very moist and had gotten pretty hard after just a year of exposure to biodiesel and ULSD. If you want to be sure, buy the expensive hose made from viton or neoprene from one of these alternative fuels companies, its gonna hurt though, pricy stuff, like $10 a foot for that return size line. It may also just be from sitting around so long in the barn...or maybe you have bugs or vermin that chewed through the lines? Just a thought..

 

[Mr_Roboto]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was from sitting. Wierd things can happen.

I had a pair of tires mounted on rims that I used some 15 years ago. I decided a few years back that I needed to use them to "hold a truck up". Lo and behold "something" had eaten a perfect, round hole straight through the sidewall. I had removed the tires from the truck because they were bias plys and handled like crap, so this was definitely not a puncture.

 

[Agnem]

Hey Mark! Glad to see you posting again, although I wish your reasons for doing so were not so unpleasant. Sounds like somebody put one too many aspirin's in your fuel. I doubt many peoples trucks sit more than mine, so I'm a belweather of dis-use deterioration, and to date I can't say I have any that are doing what yours is. I'd have to write it off as poor quality hose. Get that thing streightened out and drive it down to New Centerville and join us at the rally. Your a few years overdue for making another one, and this one is about as close to you as it's going to get, unless your running it!

 

[69oiler]

yeah Mark, come on down to the rally and shoot the breeze. and check out my new to me IDI. long time no see.

 

[hheynow]

Any suggestions would definitely be appreciated at this point, I've about had it. This has got to end.

It just did! I've been there done that. Get Dayco or Goodyear J30R9 fuel injection hose. Dayco over Goodyear but both will do. DON'T SETTLE FOR J30R7. I had bioD melt my two return hoses (FPR to each head) to a black sticky goo two years ago. The Dayco hoses have held up perfectly.

Dayco J30R9

My hose woes

 

[Warwagon]

Well It sure as heck wasn't critters, unless they were on the nanometer scale. I'm wondering, since at this point all of the effected hosing is on the return line side, if just a bit of air in with ULSD causes some sort of reaction with the hose rubber and perforates it at the microscopic level. All of the braided sheath return lines are damp. Some you can see actively seeping when the pump is on, while the others just look damp. They're all dark charcoal gray in color (I'm used to seeing light gray) and if you squeeze them a bit with tissue in your hand, they leave a bit of diesel residue on the paper.

The larger hose between the engine and the hard line return also has a couple of wee seeping places. It was NOT in contact with anything and shows no signs of abrasion. So I just don't know what else it could be. It looks to be perforating the rubber from the inside out! Once I get this devil re-hosed, It'd probably be a good idea to change out the fuel filter so no digested rubber bits make it to the I/P, killing it before it's time. Since I have no record of when the PO replaced it, I'm probably on borrowed time with it anyway..

Anybody know how long the return lines have historically lasted? I know that the ones that were on her 6 years ago were old, almost brittle, probably original and DIDN'T LEAK. The hosing between the tanks and the tank switch valve is STILL original and at this point show no leaks, so maybe I just got LOUSY hoses from 2 separate sources.

Any how, who are the vendors that deal the Vitron and Neoprene hose (links would be helpful)? Which ons is supposed to be better? (At this point, I'm a *VO & *MO neophite in vehicles anyhow) Any of you men deal with any of these vendors? What ID and OD are the 6.9 return lines? I don't mind doing the job right in order to prevent this nonsense from happening again, even if it costs some $. I thought I had done that the last time around however....this is

Mel, if I can keep some of the other madness at bay around here, you may just get a chance to see us as a drive-by in south PA, albeit with a rig that has doors of many colors. I need to get this fixed first though, because at $5.30 a gallon, I can't afford to have this rig piddling it's way across the state. The calcium chloride road treatment here has been playing Merry Hobb with body and frame metal the last couple of years on ALL my rides .. my tax dollars at work. But that's another rant

Mark

 

[Warwagon]

Thanks hheynow! I'll check availability on that!
Hi Rob! Maybe we'll get in a good gab this summer afterall!
Anyone know any other good hosing that they've had experience with? (This of course excludes the hosing we all take at the fuel pump) I personally keep a jar of petrolatum in my rigs for when it's comes time to pay the bill. Funny thing though, now that I have to use more of that grease, didn't they go and raise the price of it too!
Mark

 

[Diesel JD]

I was going to say Utah Biodiesel Supply. You might have gotten an older return kit with natural or butyl rubber in it. That fuel injection rated hose is really good too, I haven't tried to source it small enough for the return lines though, maybe you can get it that way, but you're still left with needing viton Orings and should probably replace the return caps while you're at it. As much as I love the IDIs I think the return system is a cheap sorry excuse slapstick joke of a return kit and its prone to dribble no matter what you do to it. To those of you with perfectly dry systems my hat is off to you.

 

[lotzagoodstuff]

It just did! I've been there done that. Get Dayco or Goodyear J30R9 fuel injection hose. Dayco over Goodyear but both will do. DON'T SETTLE FOR J30R7. I had bioD melt my two return hoses (FPR to each head) to a black sticky goo two years ago. The Dayco hoses have held up perfectly.

Dayco J30R9

My hose woes

Regular fuel hose will not last with biodiesels, in fact it, the 30R2 and 30R3 products don't work very well with newer gasonline.

IMHO, this is the best biodiesel hose as it has a barrier layer between the tube and cover which prevents permeation. My opinion is somewhat biased (I work for Parker) but I can tell you that Parker's Superflex outperforms 30R9 with biodiesel as it meets the ASTM D 6751 spec which is specific to biodiesel.

http://www.safehose.com/ParkerProducts.asp?catID=226

Find the closest Parker distributor and they should have the Superflex product.

 

[Agnem]

Mark, 6.9 return hose is 3/16" I've had good luck with Goodyear, which is what the Ford dealer sells.

 

[Warwagon]

Thanks Men for all of your responses thus far!
It always causes me to that on this board I do not have to anyone to get good answers. A testament to the type of brotherhood we have here. That DEFINITELY deserves an ATTABOY!

I agree that I ought to do the o-rings in Viton too, so I won't have to go through this again soon. Some more net-sniffing brought me to http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22/7-3l-idi-return-o-rings-183487/
If memory serves 6.9 and 7.3 injectors are all the same size, and the return cap sizes are too (they just have a different plumbing arrangement that requires a different number of them to be 90* vs 180* connectors.). That means that the Viton O-Rings and Hose data in the above link should be valid for me too.
Whoo-Hoo! Unless someone else says otherwise, I'm gonna place an order soon and get the old rig rattlin' in a drip free state again.

What's puzzling with all of this is that all of the hose degradation problems that I've researched so far have revolved around BioDiesel. At no time have I used any to my knowledge. All I can figure is that the fuel might have been winter treated stuff and an additive caused my hose woes!?!

Mark

 

[Warwagon]

Well fellas, I made an order to McMaster-Carr yesterday for the Viton injector O-rings, hosing and clamps. Pretty salty, but if it keeps me from having to repeat the exercise it's OK. Less than 24 hours after placing the order, the Fed Ex guy delivered it. HOLY JUMPIN' now that's service!

Won't get a chance to get to it tomorrow though. I've got to get a floor in ar least 1 of the haymows so I can get some cow-candy made. I'll let y'all know how I make out when the job's done. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Mark

 

[Agnem]

Mark, can you post that order info so I can put it in the parts bin? I'm sure a lot of us would like to switch to Viton.

 

[Warwagon]

Well fellas, the task is done and working leak free!
Took a couple of days though - when doing top of the engine tasks I envy you folks with trucks!

I ordered my hosing and stainless clamps from McMaster-Carr - stuff got here in 24 hrs! I'll include a list of what I got for ya'll. Mind you, I bought 5' of all hose sizes and clams enough to re-hose the ENTIRE rig if it comes to it. But, so far I've only done the 3/16" return lines - and the 5/16" piece that runs down to the hard line going back to the tank valve. It's a big bite for $ to be sure, but I HATE having to do things twice! I got stainless band clamps, you could save some $ by going galvanized - but I went with the higher end ones. It's my understanding that the 7.3l IDI's use 1/4" for the return T's - so if you're running a 7.3l you'll need to order that size hose and clamps (someone correct me if I'm WRONG on this!)

Here's a list from the invoice:

Line / Quantity
Part Number
Description
Unit Price / Total Price

1 1 Pack
9464K24
Viton O-Ring AS568A Dash Number 111, Packs of 50 (Same as 9464K342)
$5.93 $5.93

2 5Ft.
5119K32
High-Temperature Viton Rubber Tubing Soft, 3/16" ID, 7/16" OD, 1/8" Wall, Black
$12.25 $61.25

3 5Ft.
5119K51
High-Temperature Viton Rubber Tubing Soft, 5/16" ID, 9/16" OD, 1/8" Wall, Black
$14.79 $73.95

4 5Ft.
5119K52
High-Temperature Viton Rubber Tubing Soft, 3/8" ID, 5/8" OD, 1/8" Wall, Black
$16.06 $80.30

5 4Packs
53175K24
Miniature Bolt Hose & Tube Clamp 304 SS, 13/32" to 15/32" Clamp Dia Range, Packs of 5
$9.10 $36.40

6 3Packs
53175K27
Miniature Bolt Hose & Tube Clamp 304 SS, 17/32" to 19/32" Clamp Dia Range, Packs of 5
$9.31 $27.93

7 3Packs
53175K29
Miniature Bolt Hose & Tube Clamp 304 SS, 19/32" to 43/64" Clamp Dia Range, Packs of 5
$9.42 $28.26

Merchandise $314.02

Install went the same as any return T job, just remember that when pulling the old o-rings - take the bottom one off first, the top one last. When installing the new ones, lightly grease the injector and o-rings with vasoline and install the top one first, then the bottom one last. Install the T's by pushing down on them until they "pop" into place, exposing all of the threads on top of the injector. Then reinstall the hard lines. Then comes the return lines. Cut them to length using the old ones as a guide with a new sharp razor blade. Then slip on the band clamps, slip them on the spighots, and gently torque the clamps. Read the spec's for these when ordering them online - they only take about 2 lb-ft of torque to secure them! Don't over tighten the clamp and ruin that expensive Viton!

While I was at it, I removed the shot A/C compressor and plumbing, and ditched the CDR setup for one of Mel's Weed Sprayer Filter RDT's. Then I ran the Red Pump for a minute, bled the air at the filter Schrader, glowed the Beru's 8 seconds and the second piston to the top fired! Checked for leaks - NONE! Drove her a few miles with the dawgbox off (note to self - keep right foot OFF of exhaust manifold) and checked engine for leaks again - NONE!

....At least not from the fuel system. The stinking rear brake hard line had let go. The one that goes from the proportioning valve to the rear axle flex line. An hour's work with the stainless brake line and line-nuts (that I'd laid away for the VW diesel Samurai commuter project...), a couple of double flares, bleed them and I'm back in business. Just in time - tomorrow the family an I are going to the Cool Spring Power Museum, and the Jefferson Co. Truck and Tractor Pulls!

When it rains, it pours. Around here, it HAILS quite copiously too!