F-350 with Transfer Case driven PTO Setup

[The Warden]

Good evening!

Thought some people on here might be interested...I had an opportunity to take a look at an F-350 DRW factory 4x4 last week. This is the first time I've seen a functional transfer-case-driven PTO, and I took a few pictures of the setup.

The PTO was originally driving a winch mounted under the flat bed, as well as a second winch in the front bumper. The flat bed mounted winch (along with the flat bed itself) have since been removed; the winch in the front bumper's still there. The owner told me that the big disadvantage to a transfer-case driven PTO is that the transfer case has to be in Neutral for the PTO to be operable, so you can't run the PTO while moving the truck...and, for that matter, you have to shut off the engine before disengaging the PTO.

Okay, on to the pics!

Here's the truck...OBS F-350 chassis-cab DRW 4x4, 7.3L IDI (n/a), E4DOA, 13-56 transfer case.

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And, on to the fun part

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More pics in first reply...

 

[The Warden]

Three more pictures that didn't fit in the first message:

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Have fun!

 

[LCAM-01XA]

*** is going on with the T-case's drain port???

Also at this point I'm not buying the t-case being in neutral to run PTO thing, as there is nothing in these t-cases that engages the PTO drive gear while case is neutral and disengages it when case is in range. Matter of fact EVERYTHING behind the planetary set is identical between PTO and non-PTO cases, ours even runs Bronco parts to get the desired fixed-yoke rear output. But you got me intrigued, guess now I'm gonna have to pop our t-case's cover off and play with it and see what exactly is going on in there...

 

[towcat]

*** is going on with the T-case's drain port???

Also at this point I'm not buying the t-case being in neutral to run PTO thing, as there is nothing in these t-cases that engages the PTO drive gear while case is neutral and disengages it when case is in range. Matter of fact EVERYTHING behind the planetary set is identical between PTO and non-PTO cases, ours even runs Bronco parts to get the desired fixed-yoke rear output. But you got me intrigued, guess now I'm gonna have to pop our t-case's cover off and play with it and see what exactly is going on in there...

it's the oil feed line to the PTO.
pto's "usually" are at a lower point of the trans, so they automatically get an oil soak. not so with this. the PTO is at the highest point of the case now. So, to keep from melting down it's bearings, the oil pump from the transfer case provides oil to the PTO so it stays "happy".
what you are missing of the trans case being in neutral is the output on the trans is not spinning as long as you are in 2H/4H or 4L. if the trans output is not spinning, neither is the transfer input where the PTO gear is found. does it make sense now?

 

[Garbage_Mechan]

I have 1356 with PTO provision out of a 90 F450 in my spare pile. The only reason I can see to use one would be an automatic trans truck that has to have a PTO.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

it's the oil feed line to the PTO.
pto's "usually" are at a lower point of the trans, so they automatically get an oil soak. not so with this. the PTO is at the highest point of the case now. So, to keep from melting down it's bearings, the oil pump from the transfer case provides oil to the PTO so it stays "happy".

Actually in case of the 1356 you are supposed to overfill it when there's a PTO hanging off the side. These t-cases actually have three fluid level ports on them, your drain and standard fill on the back side, and on the front there's a 3rd one way up high - that front one is what you use to fill the t-case with a PTO, this ensures the bottom of the PTO is flooded much like how it happens when it's transmission-mounted. The vent line is also supposed to be extended way up high, for obvious reasons. The 1356 oil pump is part of the rear shaft assembly and the pressurized oil gets sent thru passages in the shaft itself, so it physically cannot supply anything else with oil... But if the PTO has its own built-in pump, then I can totally see this being the suction line for it - this is the lowest point in the case and so there will always be fluid there. Do PTOs come with internal pump as an option?

what you are missing of the trans case being in neutral is the output on the trans is not spinning as long as you are in 2H/4H or 4L. if the trans output is not spinning, neither is the transfer input where the PTO gear is found. does it make sense now?

Oh if you need the truck to be stationary absolutely, if the driveshafts aren't turning neither is everything else in the case while it's in range, PTO included. So trans in gear and T-case out of gear would ensure the t-case input shaft is turning to drive the PTO, I get that. But if you're driving winches with that PTO, and you're stuck to the point of needing the front winch for self-extractions, you wanna send some power to the wheels as well, not rely on just the winch. At this point I can't see nothing that would prevent your from placing the t-case in low range while the PTO is engaged - trans is still in gear, t-case input and thus PTO are still turning, and now the rear shaft is also turning and so are the truck's wheels. Yes you'll probably be "driving" by the PTO speed, and the wheel speed will end up where it may, but point is that you can actually use the PTO while truck is in motion, unlike what the Warden was told. Actually operating PTO while stationary is another reason to overfill the t-case - with the rear output shaft not turning neither is the t-case's oil pump, so the input shaft bearing and the planetary gearset are techincally running dry. Raise fluid level and now the planetaries are dipping in it and splash-lubricating the input bearing (and hopefully somehow the pocket bearing between the input and output shafts as well).

 

[riotwarrior]

I am NOT buying the cant drive forward or back when pto is enguaged...makes zero sence ..I call

Kinda useless pto if ya ask me to Not be able to drive.

One has to be carefull not to over rev and cavitate yes...but...idle and drive or 1000 or what ever rpm its supposed to work at should be fine.

As i cannot see pics well on ohone ca not comment on oil feed line.

Having 2 of these cases currently 1 in my truck, I do know there iz a second fill level for pto so it is bathed in oil.

Still have to work out my pto drive for my winch.....doh!

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Riot, this PTO is a hydro pump for a hydro winch. I'd say that's about the only way to connect it to a frount-mounted winch, there's just too little space for any actual drive shaft to run thru if you were to want a mechanical winch yp front.

Also good thing you brought up the operation in reverse - for a mechanical winch that may not be a problem, but how would a hydraulic pump react to it? Say you're wanting to claw your way out some mud hole the same way you came in, seems to me you'd be relying on the winch alone there, cause if you want the wheels too then t-case and PTO would be going backwards and i can't imagine that being any good for the pump...

 

[towcat]

I am NOT buying the cant drive forward or back when pto is enguaged...makes zero sence ..I call

Kinda useless pto if ya ask me to Not be able to drive.

One has to be carefull not to over rev and cavitate yes...but...idle and drive or 1000 or what ever rpm its supposed to work at should be fine.

As i cannot see pics well on ohone ca not comment on oil feed line.

Having 2 of these cases currently 1 in my truck, I do know there iz a second fill level for pto so it is bathed in oil.

Still have to work out my pto drive for my winch.....doh!

just got off the phone with the orig owner of the truck (hint....PG&E blue) the utility who owned the truck wasn't using the winch for self recovery, they were using the PTO system for cable reel drive and brake. the winch was used for pulling cable or whatnot. truck was to remain stationary for the work.

 

[riotwarrior]

just got off the phone with the orig owner of the truck (hint....PG&E blue) the utility who owned the truck wasn't using the winch for self recovery, they were using the PTO system for cable reel drive and brake. the winch was used for pulling cable or whatnot. truck was to remain stationary for the work.

What is yer point...can it drive and winch or not??

 

[trackspeeder]

Riot, this PTO is a hydro pump for a hydro winch. I'd say that's about the only way to connect it to a frount-mounted winch, there's just too little space for any actual drive shaft to run thru if you were to want a mechanical winch yp front.

Also good thing you brought up the operation in reverse - for a mechanical winch that may not be a problem, but how would a hydraulic pump react to it? Say you're wanting to claw your way out some mud hole the same way you came in, seems to me you'd be relying on the winch alone there, cause if you want the wheels too then t-case and PTO would be going backwards and i can't imagine that being any good for the pump...

When running a hydraulic pump of a T case the tranny cannot be put in reverse. Reverse rotation will trash the pump.
The tranny must be in M1 or M2.

 

[ironworker40]

What is yer point...can it drive and winch or not??

No and yes. PTO is on input of x-fer case. You put truck in gear x-fer case in neutral pto spins as fast as output of trans. You can vary the PTO speed with trans gears and engine rpm. If you put x-fer case in any gear input shaft is only spinning as fast as the wheels minus gearing so it would not be spinning fast enough for pump to produce enough flow to run winch unless you were spinning the **** out of the tires. If the tires are not turning neither is PTO if the x-fer case is in gear.

 

[LCAM-01XA]

just got off the phone with the orig owner of the truck (hint....PG&E blue) the utility who owned the truck wasn't using the winch for self recovery, they were using the PTO system for cable reel drive and brake. the winch was used for pulling cable or whatnot. truck was to remain stationary for the work.

So very much how the monster winch in the middle of my old KW was meant to be used. Yeah can't have the t-case in gear for that application, that's for sure

When running a hydraulic pump of a T case the tranny cannot be put in reverse. Reverse rotation will trash the pump.
The tranny must be in M1 or M2.

Kinda what I figured. Good to know for certain tho, never know when I'll be tempted to try something potentially stupid

No and yes. PTO is on input of x-fer case. You put truck in gear x-fer case in neutral pto spins as fast as output of trans. You can vary the PTO speed with trans gears and engine rpm. If you put x-fer case in any gear input shaft is only spinning as fast as the wheels minus gearing so it would not be spinning fast enough for pump to produce enough flow to run winch unless you were spinning the **** out of the tires. If the tires are not turning neither is PTO if the x-fer case is in gear.

1st gear in low range ain't that bad even at 2k RPMs or so. Good enough for maybe getting some traction while trying to crawl out a sloppy area, be it muck or snow. What would be the optimal PTO RPMs for a pump anyways? Just curious is all. Btw there is one thing that will quite effectively prevent use of winch while attempting to drive - how often do hydraulic winches come with in-cab controls?

 

[snicklas]

...What would be the optimal PTO RPMs for a pump anyways? Just curious is all...

I know on the newer, PSD's, the AIC for the 7.3 and the "High Idle Mod" (feature is built into the PCM) on the 6.0, when activated the engine RPM's are raised to ~1250 RPM. This is used in fire service to keep all the electronics running and the batteries charged. In other service, it is used for PTO service.

I do believe it is very common for PTO applications that you are not able to power the wheels when the PTO is in operation. I know on the fire trucks this is the case. I think this is one reason that our grass truck (96 F-350 RC 4x4) there is a separate, gas powered, pump for fire fighting operation. With this truck, you need to be mobile and be able to fight a grass fire.......

 

[riotwarrior]

Ya this was my bad thinking because that hyd pump must spin to make preassure and doing so in reverse would not work well from PTO.

Whereass a shaft driven winch from transmission does work in forward I honestly do not know if the trans in reverse spins pto backwards but I Dont think it does.

If connected to tcase and shaft driven then PTO would be forward or reverse as mandated by transmission output. If you gear up and tcase in neutral then winch speeds up as I recall.

Gets interesting with all the various systemz

I am a huge fan of shaft driven winches vs hydralic because of gears.

Having worked dech truck a few years I got aquainted with the hyd run ones and I did like power out/in/freespool of it.

Now to determine what my best option for the ARMS winch I hqve direct or hyd.

Very interesting thread with great points. Lots to figure out.

Just my Old mechanical mind adapting to fluid thinking...