DT360: The beginning

[Agnem]

If I understand correctly, you can't drive this thing yet, can you? I would want Pyro, Boost and horsepower numbers before I spent any money on assumptions. You will need an intercooler for sure. You said this was a multi-year project. Why not get out and drive it some, and accumulate some data so that as you add on to it, you can actually measure your changes and judge the value of the mods that you make? It may save you some money in the long run. I had a customer last week who waited a year for a turbo he bought from another shop for a build he was working on, and when he finally got it together, I had to explain to him that it was just too big and he couldn't spool it. Not saying that is going to happen to you, but it just seems there are so many questions to be answered here, you may be putting the cart before the horse. You can't even be sure of the long term integrity of the engine yet.

 

[BrandonMag]

That makes a lot of sense, Mel. Getting the truck built should be a priority before I focus my energy on compound turbos. May as well see what it's like with the stock turbo before I start modifying things.

 

[6.9poweredscout]

I don't think just adding a turbo, turning up an A pump and stock sticks will make 500. I've had my M&W pump professionally tuned and set for 155ccs, injectors opened up to 4x.18 and a single S366 and with everything I've gathered it should be in the 425 range. But I'll see when I get it on the rollers. If yours runs I'd just twist up the pump a little and throw a S366 on and run it then work out the details later.

 

[BrandonMag]

I don't think just adding a turbo, turning up an A pump and stock sticks will make 500. I've had my M&W pump professionally tuned and set for 155ccs, injectors opened up to 4x.18 and a single S366 and with everything I've gathered it should be in the 425 range. But I'll see when I get it on the rollers. If yours runs I'd just twist up the pump a little and throw a S366 on and run it then work out the details later.

Thanks for the input.

Ron said when he had the pump rebuilt, he removed it from the engine and shipped it to a shop back East somewhere. "They turned it up a bit," is what he told me. Unfortunately, he didn't have a receipt and couldn't remember the name of the outfit that rebuilt it. There aren't any markings on the housing, so I don't think I'm going to be able to find out who worked on it.

According to my handy Bosch Yellow Jacket Diesel In-Line Fuel-Injection Pumps book, my A pump puts out 120 mm3 of fuel per stroke, your MW pump puts out 150 mm3 of fuel, and the P7100 puts out 250 mm3. These are stock figures.

Ron also told me he put rebuilt injectors in it, but I don't recall if he said they were a stock rebuild or something more. I'm going to send him a PM and ask.

I'm hoping that if this A pump was truly turned up I shouldn't have a problem hitting the power level I want with the appropriate turbo(s). Of course, that will depend on exactly what was done to this pump and what kind of injectors are in it.

 

[6.9poweredscout]

Mine was lower stock. This was the "middle of the road" tuning. They said anymore fuel with this pump and it'd be a smoky pig down low until it built some boost, and the overall driveability wouldn't be there. So they settled on 155 and said it should move anything I want. We dialed in the timing around 27 degrees and it was very responsive without much smoke.

 

[BrandonMag]

Mine was lower stock. This was the "middle of the road" tuning. They said anymore fuel with this pump and it'd be a smoky pig down low until it built some boost, and the overall driveability wouldn't be there.

One of the reasons Ron sold me this engine was because with the HX35 he had on there, it rolled way too much coal down low. It didn't have much power down low either. He tried multiple times to adjust the fuel screw, but after he did with no effect he just got sick of it. The adjustments he made didn't seem to make any difference. Long story short, he spent a chunk of coin and a fairly substantial amount of time to make this engine tow well, didn't quite hit the mark and bagged it. I don't blame him at all.

My assumption when i bought this engine was that it just needed more air (twins). With this information you just shared I wonder if the fueling curve on the pump is less than ideal... I guess the only way to find out what is going on in there is to remove it from the engine and take it into a diesel fuel injection shop... good thing I am not in any hurry to get this on the road.

 

[6.9poweredscout]

Call Carson staffer diesel. He's built a ton of these and is a wealth of knowledge on them. When he heard what I had into my m&w he said he could have built a nice running p pump. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[BrandonMag]

I decided to take a closer look at the water pump pulley and harmonic balancer on the DT today... I can't get the harmonic balancer off yet. But here's what I discovered at the water pump.

Nothing special here, just a view from the front:

You must be registered for see images attach

Here's a view from the passenger side of the engine looking down at the pulley with the squeeze sleeve (I don't know what you call it) loosened but not removed:

You must be registered for see images attach

And here's a pic with the squeeze sleeve removed:

You must be registered for see images attach

Nothing out of the ordinary, right? This is where it gets interesting:

You must be registered for see images attach

What I had thought was one deep pulley is actually two pulleys sandwiched together. And here's the water pump:

You must be registered for see images attach

In case you're wondering: yeah, it's frickin' huge:

You must be registered for see images attach

Clearly, when this engine was designed, space was not at a premium. In my application it is. I'm wondering if there is another version of this water pump that isn't so long. Something like 3" from the face that meets the block to the end of the threaded shaft (instead of 6 1/2"). Anybody out there know if there is such a thing?

The squeeze sleeve (whatever it's called) is an interference fit to the bushing on the water pump shaft. There are six 3/8" bolts that run through it, through holes drilled in each of the pulleys and thread in to the flange behind the bushing on the water pump. I assume it's assembled this way because originally this engine came with an air pump for the bus brakes. If I run an air pump, it's going to be electric. So this water pump pulley design just isn't needed. I'm thinking if I can find a different water pump, a different water pump pulley and an ag harmonic balancer, I should be able to gain a few inches of clearance in the front where space is at a PREMIUM.

 

[6.9poweredscout]

It's been a while but I think my ag pump was shorter. Mine didn't have a nut, but a threaded piece for a fan. I cut the threaded piece off as put a few welds on it to hold it in place...Pretty sure it's a press fit, didn't want it to go anywhere.

 

[BrandonMag]

Steve from Hines equipment emailed me a picture of an ag water pump. There weren't any threads on the end of the shaft, it was smooth. The shaft extended out a little further from the face of the water pump than the water pump on my engine. The total length of the water pump he sent me the picture of was 7". He wrote that was the only ag water pump he knew of.

AFAIK, the DT360 was only offered in school buses (the version I have) and tractors (the version Steve emailed me). Unless I am mistaken, I think I will have to have some custom machining done to this water pump to reduce it's length. This will also necessitate modifying the second of the two pulleys that came off the water pump to make up for the difference in water pump length (to keep the location of the grooves where the vbelts ride in the same location in relation to the engine). Pain in the @$$, but I didn't expect this engine swap would be easy.

If there is another water pump that is shorter and will work on this engine, someone let me know.

 

[6.9poweredscout]

Maybe mine was smooth and not threaded... been a while. I know I cut about an inch off it though.

 

[crash-harris]

Subbing to this. One day I'd like to convert my F350 CCLB dually to a DT360/ZF6/4x4 as well with a bullnose clip.

I'll be watching

 

[BrandonMag]

It's been a slow couple of weeks. But: I got the harmonic balancer off and just got off the phone with Steve from Hines Equipment in PA. I've got an ag balancer on the way.

As soon as it gets here, I'll bolt it on and post some pics.

 

[F350camper]

I'm no help on the water pump, but I'm digging the build!

 

[6.9poweredscout]

Awesome!