Black dawg
Registered User
I would definitely try advancing the timing some. has this truck been sitting at all? Maybe a sticking advance , give it a good dose of cleaner.
Am I going to need a new IP and injectors for my 6.9?
- Thread starter mozzles
- Start date
Guess I'll just run it till she goes, maybe pick up a junk yard IP and see how it does. Like you said Rot Box, for $20 what have I got to lose... other than a day's time.
I understand that ideally I'd want to throw $800 on a top of the line IP and injectors, but really I only drive a couple thousand miles a year, no serious hauling or off roading, and usually go through trucks every few years or so depending on where I'm living and what I need. So, in my situation it makes sense to do it on the cheap.
I understand that ideally I'd want to throw $800 on a top of the line IP and injectors, but really I only drive a couple thousand miles a year, no serious hauling or off roading, and usually go through trucks every few years or so depending on where I'm living and what I need. So, in my situation it makes sense to do it on the cheap.
I'll look into advancing the timing but I was under the impression you can't time these by ear. I've been trying to get in touch with the head of the auto program where I go to school, they have a diesel program and would most likely give me a hand with timing it correctly, still waiting to hear back.
Where are you? Please put your location (even if is just a general idea). Some of us have meters to time it and are willing to help.
Welcome to the forum. Best place on earth for advice on these trucks. We call $500 "cheap" because you can spend double that just trying to get the less expensive fixes to work. Lots of experience here. I learned to listen well.
Welcome to the forum. Best place on earth for advice on these trucks. We call $500 "cheap" because you can spend double that just trying to get the less expensive fixes to work. Lots of experience here. I learned to listen well.
Knuckledragger
blowing chunks and grabbing porcelain
Welcome to the forum.
As you have seen, there are as many ideas and opinions as members, but they all have one thing on their mind, keeping these trucks running. You say you are at 3600 feet? That is not high elevation, but enough to make life difficult in the cold old fuel system. Before spending a lot of money, Get a set of new glow plugs. Beru are preferred, but I use Bosch and have had no problems. Autolite and Champion have a bad history of not only burning out , but being impossible to remove when you want to change them again. The GPs may alleviate your hard cold starts and make it easier to drive while you are saving for a rebuilt IP. Replacing the GPs is about a 1 hour job and very straight forward, no special tools required (a deep 3/8 socket is very helpful).
If you decide you REALLY need to replace the IP with a used one, make sure to remove it correctly, or you will create a lot of unnecessary work for yourself. The IP should not be removed from the engine with the front gear cover (the aluminum housing that the IP is bolted to), although it is so very easy to do. Take off the inspection plate (3 bolts, sealed with silicone) and remove three 12 point head bolts inside. Then the IP will slip off to the rear of the engine, presuming you have removed all of the injector lines and mounting bolts, too.
The hard start after being driven is one of two likely causes. 1)heat soak, which is a high wear condition of the IP and can be determined by pouring water over the IP (which will restart readily to tell you that there is considerable interior wear) and 2) air intrusion. There is a schrader valve on the fuel filter head. If you press it while the engine is running, it should drool or squirt fuel only. If bubbles come out, you have air in the system somewhere. There are several rubber parts that can harden and crack to create this, you job will be to find which one (or combination) has failed.
As you have seen, there are as many ideas and opinions as members, but they all have one thing on their mind, keeping these trucks running. You say you are at 3600 feet? That is not high elevation, but enough to make life difficult in the cold old fuel system. Before spending a lot of money, Get a set of new glow plugs. Beru are preferred, but I use Bosch and have had no problems. Autolite and Champion have a bad history of not only burning out , but being impossible to remove when you want to change them again. The GPs may alleviate your hard cold starts and make it easier to drive while you are saving for a rebuilt IP. Replacing the GPs is about a 1 hour job and very straight forward, no special tools required (a deep 3/8 socket is very helpful).
If you decide you REALLY need to replace the IP with a used one, make sure to remove it correctly, or you will create a lot of unnecessary work for yourself. The IP should not be removed from the engine with the front gear cover (the aluminum housing that the IP is bolted to), although it is so very easy to do. Take off the inspection plate (3 bolts, sealed with silicone) and remove three 12 point head bolts inside. Then the IP will slip off to the rear of the engine, presuming you have removed all of the injector lines and mounting bolts, too.
The hard start after being driven is one of two likely causes. 1)heat soak, which is a high wear condition of the IP and can be determined by pouring water over the IP (which will restart readily to tell you that there is considerable interior wear) and 2) air intrusion. There is a schrader valve on the fuel filter head. If you press it while the engine is running, it should drool or squirt fuel only. If bubbles come out, you have air in the system somewhere. There are several rubber parts that can harden and crack to create this, you job will be to find which one (or combination) has failed.
First we are here to help as best we can. We understand the college student and such, trust us lots of us know about tight/tough times you are not explaining a NEW situation to anyone here
With that being said, if you are not getting many hours at your job, and you really, really like the truck, perhaps it's time to find a second and possibly third job or a new one with more hours....that can help pay for both school, truck, dates....not in that order necessarily
I'm not sold on junk yard IP/injectors unless you hear that donor vehicle run for one, and perhaps can see miles etc. Or better a rebuild tag on the passengers side ID plate of the pump. Others may or may not support what I'm saying, but I feel an off the shelf IP from a wrecker is a gamble in time and money you may not want to take in case it's worse than what you have currently.
Ask the diesel class if they have a POP tester...for injectors, and if so, perhaps you can POP test your injectors, checking spray patterns and pressures. Maybe a good idea then to buy some used injectors for the shims, you can then match the ijector pop pressures if the patterns are good. Just a thought, but that could work well for a tight budget!
I am curious why if you only drive a few thousand miles a year and NO serious hauling of freight/gear or off roading, and on a serious budget why not an older honda or toyota or ford/chev mini pickup of simlar year so you don't have large investments in rebuilding a worn fuel system and expensive tyres...
These trucks are not like a honda or ranger or bronco 2 of the same era where some cheap sparkplugs and a carb kit get ya going for ever! Where tyres from walmart cost almost as much for 3 tyres as one of our truck tyres....the flip side, that rebuilt truck fuel system will go for a 100,000 miles if quality parts are invested in, substantially more than said Bronco 2 or a honda etc.
So pay more...last way longer, or pay less and deal with being stranded...your choice..either way we will help any way we can.
Al
Thanks Knuckledragger, I tried that with the schrader valve... couldn't tell about the first bit because I thought it was a good idea to use my finger. After I used a piece of metal to see better it looked like a solid stream. I'll try again and find out for sure.
Also, I got the engine good and hot, I don't have a temp gauge other than the one on the gauge cluster, but it was reading around the A in NORMAL (pretty common for my truck, have been trying to diagnose that issue as well). Anyways I shut it off, and then it started right back up again. Is it usually intermittent with the hard start issue, if the IP is bad? The only time that I can recall it being hard to start hot is that once, other than that just when it's really cold (40 and under).
Not doubting it's the IP though, I drove it around and had my eyes on my towing mirror half the time, watching for smoke. Any time I'm not real easy on the gas pedal puffs of light grey smoke come out, classic IP failure right? I'd have cleaned the system with Diesel Kleen or ATF by now but I still haven't been able to get the damn fuel filter off.
Also, I got the engine good and hot, I don't have a temp gauge other than the one on the gauge cluster, but it was reading around the A in NORMAL (pretty common for my truck, have been trying to diagnose that issue as well). Anyways I shut it off, and then it started right back up again. Is it usually intermittent with the hard start issue, if the IP is bad? The only time that I can recall it being hard to start hot is that once, other than that just when it's really cold (40 and under).
Not doubting it's the IP though, I drove it around and had my eyes on my towing mirror half the time, watching for smoke. Any time I'm not real easy on the gas pedal puffs of light grey smoke come out, classic IP failure right? I'd have cleaned the system with Diesel Kleen or ATF by now but I still haven't been able to get the damn fuel filter off.
Not necessarily. My truck definitely needed new injectors and an IP. But it still had intermittent puffs out the tailpipe and clouds when I got on it. I haven't been able to follow it since changing the CDR but from the mirror, it looks much better now. I also haven't put enough miles on it to see how the oil consumption is.
Not trying to run you down a rabbit hole. Your hot start issue would have me looking at the IP.
Not trying to run you down a rabbit hole. Your hot start issue would have me looking at the IP.
Hardass559
89 7.3 banks turbo
voice of experince cheep parts not worth the trouble i got cheep ebay pump once and cheep prity sure new bb code delphi injectors and they made my truck run worse if i haddent pulled that moter out im sure that new pump would have left me on the side of the road by now and it cost me 600 bucks to have my mustake fixed but thats why you dont take the gear housing off the moter if you change your own ip
Compu Doc
Full Access Member
It could be the IP or perhaps it could be a weak starter. I had a hot start issue and when the starter went the new starter spun much faster and my hot start issue also went away. With the old starter the engine was cranking at gas engine speed. The new one cranked it twice as fast so if it is cranking slow check the batteries and if good consider replacing the starter. If the batteries test bad or marginal then replace them first. If it is cranking really fast then change the IP.
Is there any way to measure cranking speed or do you just do it by ear? I really don't have the experience to say but maybe if there are some youtube videos I could learn.
Starting to doubt whether there even is a hot start issue... like I said, I started it up yesterday after getting the engine real hot (I don't have a proper temp gauge), I came home and shut it down, then it fired right back up. How intermittent is the hot start issue usually, just once in awhile or every time?
I was thinking about just getting an o ring and return line kit off Ebay and seeing if that makes a difference as far as smoke. Maybe get the injectors pop tested while they are off. And start saving for a new set of injectors and new IP in the meantime. Does that sound like an ok plan guys?
Starting to doubt whether there even is a hot start issue... like I said, I started it up yesterday after getting the engine real hot (I don't have a proper temp gauge), I came home and shut it down, then it fired right back up. How intermittent is the hot start issue usually, just once in awhile or every time?
I was thinking about just getting an o ring and return line kit off Ebay and seeing if that makes a difference as far as smoke. Maybe get the injectors pop tested while they are off. And start saving for a new set of injectors and new IP in the meantime. Does that sound like an ok plan guys?
Compu Doc
Full Access Member
A hot start issue would be when the truck has sat for a bit after being run. Usually sitting for about 20 minutes to a half hour. That has been my experience anyway before the starter totally went and was replaced. As for Ebay kits you could do that but there is a member here named TYP4 who sells the kit with Viton O rings which are resistant to breaking down with the ULSD diesel that our trucks are forced to use.
You may actually want to order two kits to make sure you have enough hose and 90 degree caps or straight caps. I just replaced mine, actually Mark AKA War Wagon did most of the work but with mine the original setup had 3 90 degree caps and five straight. The new kit had four of each and being we had to use a 90 where a straight cap was we ran out of hose so had to use a piece of 1/4" fuel hose for the injector to the fuel filter head. If I had to do it over again I would have ordered two kits and kept the left over parts.
If you're just going to replace the caps and O rings there is no need to remove the injectors. The best way to replace the caps and O rings is to take off the old caps leaving the hose intact with the old caps. This way you can gut the right size hose to go in between the caps and then build the setup and replace as a unit. If you put the top O ring on first it will make putting the second O ring on easier for each injector.
You may actually want to order two kits to make sure you have enough hose and 90 degree caps or straight caps. I just replaced mine, actually Mark AKA War Wagon did most of the work but with mine the original setup had 3 90 degree caps and five straight. The new kit had four of each and being we had to use a 90 where a straight cap was we ran out of hose so had to use a piece of 1/4" fuel hose for the injector to the fuel filter head. If I had to do it over again I would have ordered two kits and kept the left over parts.
If you're just going to replace the caps and O rings there is no need to remove the injectors. The best way to replace the caps and O rings is to take off the old caps leaving the hose intact with the old caps. This way you can gut the right size hose to go in between the caps and then build the setup and replace as a unit. If you put the top O ring on first it will make putting the second O ring on easier for each injector.
I got in touch with punkmechanic, a member on here who lives a couple hundred miles away from me, and we plan on meeting up sometime and doing a little work on my truck. It will help a lot I'm sure.. we'll be going over the timing, injectors, injection pump, not sure what else. He mentioned that TYP4 lives in Newberg, also not very far away.
Oh and Al sorry I overlooked your post last night, wasn't trying to be rude. I wanted a full size truck to have room for hauling my kayak in the summer along with camping gear, my dirt bike if I ever get it running again, plus I want to convert it to WVO eventually. I used to have a diesel Isuzu Pup that was a great candidate for wvo but the tranny went out and it was a little too small.
Oh and Al sorry I overlooked your post last night, wasn't trying to be rude. I wanted a full size truck to have room for hauling my kayak in the summer along with camping gear, my dirt bike if I ever get it running again, plus I want to convert it to WVO eventually. I used to have a diesel Isuzu Pup that was a great candidate for wvo but the tranny went out and it was a little too small.
bbjordan
Snow Monkey
Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of experience and good advice on this site. I would start with the cheap stuff first:
Fuel line return kit
Pop test/replace the injectors
Set the timing with a meter
The symptoms you've given could amount to something that simple. Air intrusion can be a b*tch to find. Russ (TYP4) sells a good fuel line return kit for a good price. If you can find some one close that can pop test the injectors, that will tell you if they need replacing. Once you know the injectors are good, set the timing with a meter. From what you've said it sounds like the timing is too retarded, but leaky injectors can cause that too.
I recently replaced the injectors, fuel line return kit and set the timing on my IDI. What a difference! Its like a new engine. Before I had done this, I thought that I would be replacing the injector pump too. I will eventually, but now I can save up for a baby moose.
You might want to check out the benefits of adding a little biodiesel to your fuel as well. It is the BEST fuel additive for making your IP survive. If you search this site long enough there is a report of a study done of fuel additives. Just a little goes a long way.
Good luck with your truck.
Fuel line return kit
Pop test/replace the injectors
Set the timing with a meter
The symptoms you've given could amount to something that simple. Air intrusion can be a b*tch to find. Russ (TYP4) sells a good fuel line return kit for a good price. If you can find some one close that can pop test the injectors, that will tell you if they need replacing. Once you know the injectors are good, set the timing with a meter. From what you've said it sounds like the timing is too retarded, but leaky injectors can cause that too.
I recently replaced the injectors, fuel line return kit and set the timing on my IDI. What a difference! Its like a new engine. Before I had done this, I thought that I would be replacing the injector pump too. I will eventually, but now I can save up for a baby moose.
You might want to check out the benefits of adding a little biodiesel to your fuel as well. It is the BEST fuel additive for making your IP survive. If you search this site long enough there is a report of a study done of fuel additives. Just a little goes a long way.
Good luck with your truck.
mariner45
Full Access Member
As you can see there are a lot of people willing to chip in and share their experiences and ideas.
I would start with KISS.
I mention the KISS because I was convinced that my truck needed new fuel injector a few years ago - I have had this truck since new and know a fair bit about engines.
Anyway, I ordered the injectors and whilst waiting for them, decided to try some fuel conditioner. Engines are built to be worked hard - not used like a lot of owners do, as a daily driver. Daily driving on lightly loaded shortish trips are not good for the engines.
I needed a some gravel and decided to dump a load of fuel treatment in with the fuel, for the trip to get the gravel - some 40 miles away. The road travelled was hilly (6% gradients or more, the norm) and I noticed the truck smoking a lot driving to pick up the gravel. On the return trip loaded with gravel and the truck way down on it's springs, with veeeeery light steering, I decided to work that sucker (engine) really hard for about an hour.
When I arrived home the truck was no longer smoking, no more strong diesel smell in the exhaust and the best part, the engine idled smoothly - the best it has done for years.
In my estimation, the injectors were probably carboned up at the tips causing them to dribble and not spray properly. I am sure the fuel treatment went along way to cleaning up the injection pump internals and allow for better metering etc.
The two treatments I used were Power Service and Kleenflow - don't remember how much I used, but it was about three or four times the recommended dose. There were other reasons for the increased dosage, but my primary concern was that the engine hadn't been worked hard for a few years as I no longer tow a 27ft travel trailer.
So, before going out and spending hundreds of dollars on something you may not need, try using fuel treatment in your truck. The actual cost will probably be less than twenty dollars total.
Oh, this was about four years ago and I still have the new fuel injectors stored away in my workshop - along with a spare injection pump, fuel lift pump, alternator, vacuum pump etc. I will keep them all for "just in case" I might need them. I certainly didn't need any after using the fuel treatment.
HTH and don't be afraid of trying some of the real simple stuff first - it often works well and produces positive results.
Good luck.
I would start with KISS.
I mention the KISS because I was convinced that my truck needed new fuel injector a few years ago - I have had this truck since new and know a fair bit about engines.
Anyway, I ordered the injectors and whilst waiting for them, decided to try some fuel conditioner. Engines are built to be worked hard - not used like a lot of owners do, as a daily driver. Daily driving on lightly loaded shortish trips are not good for the engines.
I needed a some gravel and decided to dump a load of fuel treatment in with the fuel, for the trip to get the gravel - some 40 miles away. The road travelled was hilly (6% gradients or more, the norm) and I noticed the truck smoking a lot driving to pick up the gravel. On the return trip loaded with gravel and the truck way down on it's springs, with veeeeery light steering, I decided to work that sucker (engine) really hard for about an hour.
When I arrived home the truck was no longer smoking, no more strong diesel smell in the exhaust and the best part, the engine idled smoothly - the best it has done for years.
In my estimation, the injectors were probably carboned up at the tips causing them to dribble and not spray properly. I am sure the fuel treatment went along way to cleaning up the injection pump internals and allow for better metering etc.
The two treatments I used were Power Service and Kleenflow - don't remember how much I used, but it was about three or four times the recommended dose. There were other reasons for the increased dosage, but my primary concern was that the engine hadn't been worked hard for a few years as I no longer tow a 27ft travel trailer.
So, before going out and spending hundreds of dollars on something you may not need, try using fuel treatment in your truck. The actual cost will probably be less than twenty dollars total.
Oh, this was about four years ago and I still have the new fuel injectors stored away in my workshop - along with a spare injection pump, fuel lift pump, alternator, vacuum pump etc. I will keep them all for "just in case" I might need them. I certainly didn't need any after using the fuel treatment.
HTH and don't be afraid of trying some of the real simple stuff first - it often works well and produces positive results.
Good luck.
