1989 7.3 idi white smoke issue, stumped...

[crewd]

Hey guys, I am working on a 1989 F250 4x4 5spd 7.3. Problem is white smoke at all times, smells like fuel. This is a recent purchase, it smoked when I bought it. Miles are unknown, and history is pretty much unknown, although I can ask the seller some questions.

It is a somewhat hard to start, cranking 3-5 times before starting. Idles at 800 rpm (high). It feels pretty smooth at idle, not unbalanced. Every so often it will "sneeze" or make a puff of more white smoke. It will rev willingly, although it might stumble a bit then take off, making lots of smoke mostly white, some dark gray.

Rebuilt engine, new crank and cam bearings, etc.
Low mileage injector pump from 1990 truck.
New injectors from mylex international.
New orings and return lines.

Things I have done:
-Turned the fuel screw down, seller said it was up 1/4 turn, so I did 1/4 turn ccw. No difference.
-Advance timing, approx 1/16" to passenger side, ccw facing front of engine. No difference. 1/16" between the scribe marks feels like that is about all the pump will turn.
-Cracked each injector line, all affect idle smoothness. (I did this under the hood, and didn't watch the tailpipe closely, but I did not discern any change in smoke) No difference.

Running out of ideas...
Last thing I want to try is to verify timing is right in case the gear housing was taken off the engine.

Any else I can try?

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[icanfixall]

When is the engine making white smoke. What glow plugs are you running. If the white smoke is happening during cranking then your getting fuel but no heat from glow plugs. White smoke also means burning coolant. Are you loosing any coolant. How many miles are on the engine rebuild. New injecters from mylex.. Are you certain they were new and not a new remanufactured injecter. Some ebay sellers use the word new when they try to confuse the buyer they are getting a new anything. May very well be the injection pump. How was it installed on the engine. Did you remove the pump with the gear and the gear cover from another engine.. If so you probably have the gear timing wrong. Thats a common issue removing the pump and gear as one piece. Looking at the 4 easy to reach bolts in the cover makes a person think thats the best easy way to remove a pump. Its actually the worst way of doing it. Hope you can answer some or all of these questions so we can help.

 

[crewd]

Thanks for the ideas. I will look into the coolant, I will double check coolant and radiator.

It smokes white smoke while cranking, and running, idling, hot and cold, all the time. Rev it up and you get more of it. Really smells like fuel. Its a fogger. If a video would help, I can post one on youtube tomorrow.

I did not do any of the work on the engine. Everything mentioned above is what the seller told me. Intake looks to have been off, because I see rtv in places. I asked the seller if he had the injection pump off, he said yes. Still waiting to hear back if he had the gear housing off when he did that. This is most promising lead, because the seller was swapping parts from two trucks and am wondering if he did have the gear housing off.

Not certain on the mylex injectors, seller told me they were "new stage 1 not rebuilt" injectors but I see no mention of anything but rebuilt injectors on mylex international website. I will assume they are rebuilt. Seller tells me that all the work was done two years ago. Do not know how many miles since rebuild.

I do not know what glow plugs. I have not had them out. A couple of glow plugs are not working, starts up a unbalanced and settles out smooth.

I have not put any miles on the truck, towed it home and only driven it around the yard.

I probably should do a baseline compression check as well. (and check the glow plugs)

 

[icanfixall]

Thanks for the updates to my questions. Well if the exhaust smells like fuel its probably a pmp or injecter problem. Unburned fuel smel can only mean this os really bad timing. Another thought is these engines will run 180 degrees out of time. This happens when the injection pump and gear are removed at the same time and the person doing it has no idea which cam gear mark to use for gear alignment. We don't need to try fixing that till its been determined thats the problem. Here is a picture of what the crank, cam and injection pump gear timing marks looks like.

 

[crewd]

Haven't been able to get on the site all day. Thanks for the photos. That will be my next step to take off the gear housing and make sure the gear is in right spot. I found instructions somewhere to put #1 at tdc on compression, then make a series of marks on the injector gear to draw a line that is parallel to the top of the engine block. Then the two "y" marks should be in proper position.

I think only a couple glow plugs are working. I only found two that had wires were warm to touch. I did take a couple out, they are beru. I already have a set of bosch to put in. I will check the resistance on the rest. The glow plug relay is cycling rapidly, maybe every second, on off on off. Wiring is a bit hacked up, so I need to investigate.

Video of cold start today. Smokes same even warm.
http://youtu.be/tcFdBOLGN9k

 

[bigoilburner20]

look i had an 86 and if i didnt have the fuel filter on tight enough it was just like that all the time warm cold anytime all the time took me a while considering it happened only after I changed the filter

 

[pwjackson]

My truck did this when I first got it. The previous owner tried to install a new IP and had the timing off 180 degrees. I went through everything before I figured this out. I had to start it with ether though so yours may not be a full 180 out but I bet it is off quite a bit.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Did you actually check to see what the timing was at?

Don't use the Bosch plugs, get more Motorcraft/Beru as others are known to swell the tips and burn out and cause a lot of grief to remove.

 

[crewd]

I pulled the gear housing off today, reset the injector pump gear and put it back together. I did not check what the original timing was, but it should be correct now, at least static timing. I do not have a timing tool. It did get rid of the popping sound and starting a bit easier but still putting out about the pretty much the same amount of white smoke. I keep thinking back to the what the seller called these injectors "stage 1" and that he was planning to put a turbo on. So I am thinking the injectors might be putting too much fuel in? I don't see a code on these, just stamped a "3".

The seller also gave me the original BB code injectors (3 delphi, 5 lucas). So I am going to put those in and see what happens. Return lines look pretty ratty too, so I'll change that too.

Too late, the bosch glow plugs are in, thought they were decent (at least not autolite or champion). I will put beru in if I come across a set.

Haven't checked the fuel filter for tightness yet.

 

[icanfixall]

If you look at the picture I posted about the gear timing. you can see the injection pump gear is timed corectly to the cam gear when the drive pin is at the 4 oclock postiton. An easy way to know its alingned properly is to make a line mark from the "Y" all the way to the top of the gear. Then set the gear in place and use a square to make sure its striaght up and down at a right angle off the top of the timing gear water pump cover. Kinda hard to explain without a pic but I hope you understand this. To make sure your on the cam "Y" also you will need to remove the number one glow plug and slowly crank the engine til you feel air or compression coming out the plug hole. then watch the timing mark come up on the timing tab at the dampner. That will insure that you have reached top dead center number one cylinder. Now the injection pymp gear can be placed in the housing and the square will insure its aling ed properly with the cam "Y". Put the gear cover on with some RTV and your really done with the gear timing. No way will the injection pump gear jump timing when you connect the injection pump to it. There is not engough room in the housing for the gear to be moved up high enough for it to come off the cam gear.

 

[crewd]

Thanks for the info. The injector gear is done.

Anyone want to guess what the results were of changing the injectors to the used BB injectors and running new return lines? No change! Arrrgh...

Still too much fuel and smoke, so I am going to swap out the injector pump with a used one I pulled from the auto yard a while ago for a core. It will be a gamble esp. with used parts...

If there is no change after the injector pump swap, I will be really stumped.

 

[icanfixall]

When you pulled the pump, cover and gear as one piece. And then assembled it how do you know you have the gear timing correct. You really have no way of knowing by the way you said you fix it. Just moving the injection pump gear a few teeth wont make the cam to injection pump gear timing correct. you have to know for certain the number one cylinder is at top dead center. To do that the glow plug must come out and slowly crank the engine till you see the dampner timing mark approach the zero mark on the timing tab. Thats the middle of the short probe location. If the tab is dirty clean it off and you will see the line and the zero mark. Only doing it this way will you actually know the "Y" on the cam gear is pointing up. Then scribe a line from the "Y" on the injection pump gear to the top of the gear. Now set it down on the cam gear. Now use a square to insure the line you made on the injection pump gear is square with the top of the water pump plate. Som call that plate the timing gear cover. No matter what. Just make sure the line you made is straight up and down. If you feeling lucky you might use a small inspection mirrow and flashlite to look way down in the cover at the two "Y's" and see if they are together like in my pics. If you see the cam dot then your 180 degrees out of gear timing. Thats likda where I think you are now by the way you posted how you have done the work so far. I hope we can help you get the engine running correctly. I sure would not run a wrecking yard pump of unkown conditin on my fuel syste. Any rust or dirt in it will ruin your injecters fast.

 

[crewd]

Icanfixall, I think we are on the same page but I am not articulating very well. Your help is much appreciated!

To do the injector gear and housing. I first disconnected the hard lines to injectors and unbolted the injector pump from the gear and gear housing and left the pump laying in the valley (I could not remove pump with lines attached to pump). Then unbolted the gear housing and removed the housing and gear. Then I rotated the engine to tdc on cylinder one, (I stuffed a rag in the glow plug hole, when it popped out, it was on compression stroke) then I rotated the crank slightly to put the dampner mark at the 0 mark on the timing indicator bracket. On the injector gear, I counted 19 teeth up on each side of the y mark on the injector gear and drew a horizontal line between them. Then counted the teeth to get the exact opposite tooth of the y mark and drew a vertical line between this tooth and the y mark. Set the gear back in place, the horizontal line parallel with deck (and plate timing cover), and the vertical line checked with a square to deck surface. Then I bolted housing on, and then bolted the pump to the housing. This left me with the dowel in the injector gear in approx 4 oclock position. So I believe we are on the same page.

Note: I did not try to look and see if the cam gear y mark was at the top when it was apart, I did not think there was room to see it with a inspection mirror. Also I did not set the cyl 1 tdc before taking off the gear housing, so I don't know where the gear was originally set by the previous owner, but it doesn't matter now.

I fully understand about a used junkyard pump and it is pretty dirty. But it has the old injectors in now, and there was no change in smoke.

So I am left with the following I think,
a) the injector pump?
b) a compression issue?
c) return line problem? (return fuel always goes to front tank)
d) more timing advance? (with the junkyard pump and gear housing, I see it is slotted to move about 1/4" to left and right of mark on the housing, but with the hard lines connected on the truck, I could barely get it to move 1/16" or slightly more, so maybe I need to disconnect lines, set timing then put lines back on)

 

[icanfixall]

Well I see we are really talking about the same stuff. My only thought is the cam gear not being correct. Even reaching down in there with a dental pick to feel for the "Y" or the dot would have helped a lot. But it sounds like you have the engine at tdc number one because the rag blew out of the glow plug hole when the piston was coming up. If the engine was on the exhaust stroke the exhaust valve would have been open and the rag would have moved but not blown out. these engines compress the volume of a piston that over 4.100 and a stroke about the same all up into an area that about 42 thousands between the piston and the head. So that air has to blow out somewhere. As for having a tuff time rotating the injection pump with the hard lines do this. Loosen all the lines on the end of the pump you can easily reach. Move the pump and tighten the lines. This is a little known trick to moving the pumps when the lines are hard to the drivers side. This is a terrible idea of timing adjustments too. Sure glad we don't have to move the pumps more than about the dimes thickness or maybe 1/16th inch. Glad to be of help. Its just very ******* this side of the screen to help sometimes. A few years ago a member rented one of my timing meters and has issues. He was seeing around 280 degrees of timing and wondred why. So we talked thru it. He seemed yo have all the right stuff done but when I asked about connecting to number one cylinder he replyed yes. He was sure of that. So I asked if he was on the drivers side or the passenger side number one cylinder. He was on the drivers side cylinder which is really number 2 in the fireing order. The intake manifold port runners have the number cylinder cast into them so it easy if you know what to look for. So here was a guy feeling he was correctly connected to the proper cylinder and wondering why his timing was so far off. Asking the simple easy questions is not my way to make someone feel bad that they didn't know whats what. Its helping others so they can retutn the help to others when the time comes. I think it time for you ti move the pump towards the passenger fender to advance it. When you do this you wil hear some rattle like a powerstroke engine makes telling you the advance is about correct. At this point I'm thinking you may need a set of injecters or at least a rebuilt injection pump. Before buying from any ebay source please read the Hall of shame forum so you will not be cheated by those stores listed. We have places of both sides of the country that treat customers well for a fair price too. Please ask fefore buying if you have a place in mind...

 

[crewd]

Yes, I feel like I am over looking something simple or the injector or pump are just worn out. I was/am using cylinder one on passenger side next to the filter. I am not confident about what the seller told me he has done, so I need to start from a blank slate.

Is there a trick or special wrench to loosen the lines on the back of the pump, because I don't have a way to loosen the ones on the bottom without taking off the upper lines. But if only a dime's width is needed then somthing else is bad.

So I changed out the injector pump yesterday to the used one from the junkyard. It did improve the smoke, but not enough. I initially set it injector pump timing to the mark on the gear housing, then tried advanced 1/8 and retarded 1/8 without much change. One issue though, when I snapped the throttle on two occasions in the driveway, I had runaway. I threw a rag on the intake, then killed it with fuel shutoff. It also had a bad stumble from 1000-1500 rpm.

This is more of a parts truck for my bronco (got 2 zf5's, 2 good radiators, mud tires, etc...) , but I wanted to drive it for a few months and do some work with it. So I am hesitant to put much money in it. I do have one more parts motor, supposedly low mileage from a van. So I may try that pump.

If anything, it is super easy to work on, I can change the pump out in no time. So I don't mind swapping out parts.

When I have the pump out again, I will go ahead and pull of the gear housing again and check the cam gear "y" mark. I really should have done that the first time. I will figure out a way with a dental pick, mirror, or putty. I have noticed with the second pump, when the truck was warm, there would be no smoke immediately on startup, after 15-30 seconds it would build up to a steady stream of white smoke. (When cold, always had white smoke) Also when I had the injectors out, they were all wet with fuel. So either getting an incomplete burn and fuel is hanging around until the next firing cycle or it is injecting fuel at wrong time. Either way, I know it is not good to have fuel stacking on the pistons, so I want to address this. At this point I don't smell any fuel in the oil yet (new oil change when I bought it). So I will ensure the cam gear is correct.

I won't be able to work on the truck again till midweek.