why you can throw stupid power easily at a cummins and have to work at a IDI......
- Thread starter towcat
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stumiister
Diesel Truck Tech
Everyone talks about repowering these trucks with another IDI or a Cummins or a PSD but has anyone tried to repower a truck with a Cat and which one was it? they cant be any heavier than a 6.9 or a Cummins?
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there hasn't been much talk about dropping in CAT's due to the size and weight issue. the ones that do come close to in size 3208, 3116, 3126, have issues with not being real powerhouses.
stumiister
Diesel Truck Tech
Ive heard of the 3208 in Fords but not the others, Ive seen a 3126 in a Peterbilt
purg113
new to me f350
form the site i have found
3208 around 165 hp
3116 around 170 hp new
3126 165-23 hp
http://www.frontiertruckparts.com/parts/search/500/Engine
so not a big change in power over what we have but the shops that can work on them are all over the place so that might be a plus.
3208 around 165 hp
3116 around 170 hp new
3126 165-23 hp
http://www.frontiertruckparts.com/parts/search/500/Engine
so not a big change in power over what we have but the shops that can work on them are all over the place so that might be a plus.
all the cats have fitment issues. It would be eaiser to stretch the hood and fenders than deal with the firewall to put an inline cat in there. I figured this out when I was going to pun a volvo in this truck. 4 inches longer than a 5.9, as is the cat ****, I mean stuff.
Kevin 007
Full-floater
A 3304 would be my choice, of course if a guy could get it to fit.
Back to the point, I think if someone wanted to hop up his factory engine pickup or wanted one that would be hot from the factory; he should then go buy one that suits his needs. Be it a PSD, later Cummins, Hemi whatever. Our old mellow diesels are made to be just that "mellow" and reliability usually goes hand in hand with that. It seems that every since 94, diesel on-road engines are in a huge power and performance war and reliability has gone down hill ever since. I don't think too many folks will argue that point. We have lost the good ol' diesels of yesteryear that just chug away all day long without causing a fuss. This now goes for off-road diesels as well. I run heavy equipment quite often at work and the new **** that we use is constantly having electrical glitches, afterburner issues, no start conditions and not to mention everything is governed to the titts. SURE, they have the big power but at the end of the day, the job only needs to get done safely and on time...and the old rigs, pickups and equipment did just that. Just yesterday I spent 7 hours clearing heavy snow at work with a 1969 D6C dozer. It only runs about 2 or 3 times a year and it did just great!!! No issues at all, just chugged away like it should.
The old Cats were notorious for being over bladed and under powered, but thats what made them last!!! They didn't tear themselves apart. I could rattle off a dozen examples of types equipment I have seen or used that had the big power, but spent MANY hours in the shop for repair. Compare a D6C or D to a IH TD6. The IH would tear themselves to pieces. I remember talking to an old timer saying that in the oil fields, the night sky would be lit up with welding machines repairing IH dozers, while the Cats were in bed sleeping. Night after night. And he was an IH dealer hahaha.
So if an idi doesn't have enough jam for you, may it be a 6.9/7.3 or whatever....then go out and get a hot rod. Same with all the young generation hot rodding civics. They wreck one good car after another with all their mods. after a months it ends up having a cloud of blue smoke behind it wherever they go. Or people who buy a diesel just so they can blow smoke....c'mon!!! Grow up.
Our idis have their clientele and so do the cummins and PSD's. Just a matter of doing some research to see what meets YOUR needs.
Back to the point, I think if someone wanted to hop up his factory engine pickup or wanted one that would be hot from the factory; he should then go buy one that suits his needs. Be it a PSD, later Cummins, Hemi whatever. Our old mellow diesels are made to be just that "mellow" and reliability usually goes hand in hand with that. It seems that every since 94, diesel on-road engines are in a huge power and performance war and reliability has gone down hill ever since. I don't think too many folks will argue that point. We have lost the good ol' diesels of yesteryear that just chug away all day long without causing a fuss. This now goes for off-road diesels as well. I run heavy equipment quite often at work and the new **** that we use is constantly having electrical glitches, afterburner issues, no start conditions and not to mention everything is governed to the titts. SURE, they have the big power but at the end of the day, the job only needs to get done safely and on time...and the old rigs, pickups and equipment did just that. Just yesterday I spent 7 hours clearing heavy snow at work with a 1969 D6C dozer. It only runs about 2 or 3 times a year and it did just great!!! No issues at all, just chugged away like it should.
The old Cats were notorious for being over bladed and under powered, but thats what made them last!!! They didn't tear themselves apart. I could rattle off a dozen examples of types equipment I have seen or used that had the big power, but spent MANY hours in the shop for repair. Compare a D6C or D to a IH TD6. The IH would tear themselves to pieces. I remember talking to an old timer saying that in the oil fields, the night sky would be lit up with welding machines repairing IH dozers, while the Cats were in bed sleeping. Night after night. And he was an IH dealer hahaha.
So if an idi doesn't have enough jam for you, may it be a 6.9/7.3 or whatever....then go out and get a hot rod. Same with all the young generation hot rodding civics. They wreck one good car after another with all their mods. after a months it ends up having a cloud of blue smoke behind it wherever they go. Or people who buy a diesel just so they can blow smoke....c'mon!!! Grow up.
Our idis have their clientele and so do the cummins and PSD's. Just a matter of doing some research to see what meets YOUR needs.
Just an FYI on the 3208's being 165HP, those are naturals.
The same blocks can produce a lot more HP with the "easy" yet costly additions of turbo's, injectors, aftercoolers, etc... We have customers all day long with 550HP marinized 3208's.
Weight and stuffment would be my concerns with those big ole bricks, although I'd love one in my IDI.
(Stuffment, new term I just made up.... cramming and engine into a space it doesn't fit)
The same blocks can produce a lot more HP with the "easy" yet costly additions of turbo's, injectors, aftercoolers, etc... We have customers all day long with 550HP marinized 3208's.
Weight and stuffment would be my concerns with those big ole bricks, although I'd love one in my IDI.
(Stuffment, new term I just made up.... cramming and engine into a space it doesn't fit)
gandalf
Senior Member
I'll take this thread in a slightly different direction, and comment on CaptTom's statement about 3208s in boats.
I'm familiar with two DownEast Lobster boats, each of which is 3208 powered. Both are 36 feet, within a foot or two maybe, but are different maker's hulls.
The first, the Islander, belongs to my grandsons' great-grandfather.
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The second is the Mattie Belle, belonging to Linda Greenlaw.
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The Islander has a 3208NA, while the Mattie Belle has a 3208TA, turbo and aftercooler. The Mattie Belle is half again as fast as the Islander. The Mattie Belle will run at 30, while the Islander will run at 18-20. My ex-son-in-law runs the Islander harder than Linda runs the Mattie Belle. Hull differences can't make that much difference. I don't know what power either engine is rated. The performance difference has to be in the turbo and the aftercooler.
Okay, now you can get back to the purpose of the original thread.
MIDNIGHT RIDER
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Several years ago, it was not un-common to see a 3208 back-yard-mechaniced into a 70s Ford.
I never saw one that looked like a carefully thought out install, but they were in there and they worked.
When Ford introduced the first real diesel 1-ton trucks in 1983, this practice sort of went by the way-side.
A 6BT Cummins fits in a Ford better than any of the 8-cylinder IDI I-H engines and is much of the reason why it is such a popular swap, plus at least doubling fuel-mileage and tripling "felt" power.
I never saw one that looked like a carefully thought out install, but they were in there and they worked.
When Ford introduced the first real diesel 1-ton trucks in 1983, this practice sort of went by the way-side.
A 6BT Cummins fits in a Ford better than any of the 8-cylinder IDI I-H engines and is much of the reason why it is such a popular swap, plus at least doubling fuel-mileage and tripling "felt" power.
Kevin 007
Full-floater
Doubling fuel mileage???
MUDKICKR
Full Access Member
guess im not seeing it but i dont see how a rear mail seal has anything to do with getting power out of an engine? or maybe i was taught wrong but what i was taught was an engine is nothing more then an air pump, the more air you can pump in and out, the more power you can get. guess i can go to them and tell them there wrong, cause its the size of the rear main oil seal, not the fuel/air/heads/compression/ect.
93IDIT
Registered User
I think he meant doubling the fuel mileage over the gasoline counterparts in the dodge trucks that had the 6bt. There's no way it would double the gas mileage over the IDI.
I think you totaly missed Towcats point. While I do agree rear mains have nothing to do with performance potential of an engine, Towcat just happend to have both seals around and used it as an example of one of the ways a 6BT is overbuilt for a pickup truck aplication. You can put more power down out of a cummins much more reliably with out upgrading the bottom end than with a PSD or duramax. Cummins designed the engine to be used in higher HP aplications than the pickup whear as the duramax was designed for a pickup and the 7.3 and 6.0 were designed half for a pickup and half for a low HP requirement medium duty trucks the HP numbers of the IDI and the 6.0, Not sure about the 7.3 psd are actualy lower in a international than in a ford.
you're partially missing the point. if all your goal is the max in getting air in and out, then throw out the IH 6.9/7.3 and the 6BT. they're overweight. after all, with your line of thought, a GM 6.2/6.5 will EASILY fill your needs. I've built enough of these motors where they can get stupid fast quick. if longevity is no concern to you, a GM will do everything you want compared to the other two. Now if you want a healthy dose of reliability added into your air pump, you will need to take a look at how the bottom end of a engine is designed and spec'd. an inline with large bearing surfaces will take more power thrown at it and stay together longer compared to a V-designed engine. take away the overkill lower block reinforcements and webbing, you now have a hand grenade known as a GM 6.2/6.5. Fast. stupid fast. But don't ask it to work hard. It will tear out its 2,3,&4 main webs and toss the crank out the pan too.
if you can visualize the bearing size differences by the speedi-sleeve comparo, you just understood my point in posting the pic. if not, just carry on. the point of all this was a simple visualization exercise. nothing more.
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