Twin IP's?

[Hook_A_Chain]

I was talking to a friend a while ago and i forget exactly what engine it was on but he had built a pretty serious engine and was running 2 injection pumps on it, pretty sure it was in a sled pullin rig.
Now im buiding my engine, with twin turbos, reworked heads, head studs, different rods, etc, and was wondering if it would be beneficial if i ran 2 IP's vs. one. I was thinking just block off 4 of the outlets and run one for each side with larger diameter tube going to the injectors. Or am i just better off getting a new pump for turbo IDI (xx31 i believe) and having that built up by DPS?
open to any comments and/or suggestions
Kyle

 

[sle2115]

From what I know about IP's, doing a split system would do no good. The IP is set to deliver a certain amount of fuel with each fuel pulse, cutting the number of pulses (splitting the IP for 4 cylinders) wouldn't deliver any more fuel. I saw the setup you speak of, it was a Chevy 6.2/6.5 and it had both IP's plumbed in to all 8 injectors, thus theoretically delivering twice the fuel to each cylinder.

While DPS seems to make some great products, contacting them for support seems to be a VERY big issue, one that I would not be willing to deal with, that being said, I believe they are about the only ones doing performance work on our IP's. I think I would just get a good Turbo IP and be done with the hassle of what most consider poor customer service (I don't have any first hand knowledge, but do a search, you will find what I speak of) or the hassle of fabbing up dual IP's.

While I don't know what your goals are, keep in mind that you will be hard pressed to make more hp than an electronically controlled truck made by any of the big three with an IDI, but that is just my .02 worth.

 

[Hook_A_Chain]

I realize beating any slightly modified powerstroke, cummins, or duramax is a very big feat for a IDI engine, and i dont plan to be doing too much of that. But I'm just doing this as a fun shop truck, and im justa n old skool kind of guy, and love the simplicity of the IDIs and think a built up one would just be different and cool.... I'm thinking the engine will end up turning out relatively low HP numbers but with pretty good torque numbers.
I was also thinking that just running 4 lines out of each one would give it pretty much the same fuel, and making 2 of the linessmoothly connect to goo into 1 injector would be a big project in itself.
And yes DPS has very popr customer suppourt from my experiences. I sent them an e-mail about around 3,000 ,at least, in business(Injectors, custom IP, Water/**** injection kit, gauges, etc) that i was just going to order all from them since it would be easier to get it from one place.
I sent the e-mail 3 or 4 times over the course of roughly 2 months, never recieved a reply. Im in no rush to get the stuff, but i would like a response from someone. They are the only reason i considered running dual injection pumps, because i couldnt get ahold of someone over there that could help me out. But if its that hard to get quality work, i am thinking of just tearing a few apart and finding out just exactly how the injection pumps tick and modify my own. It will probably end up costing the same as if i had them build me one with the price of the IP's id probably be wasting trying to get it delivering the fuel it needs to be delivering, but in my mind it would be worth. it. And its just another thing i'll know its my fault if it breaks and I'll know how to fix it. And I'll know it will be done by my standards.


BTW, building my 6.9 the way i am, most people will think im "nuts" for spending this time and money on a 80s truck that still will be beat out by modified electronically controlled trucks....but I'm not spending 20-60 grand on the truck itself(only 500 bucks,very good deal for me) and ill be making at least slightly larger power numbers than them(stock), and they can spend thousands of dollars on injectors and chips and turbo kits, i dont have that cash flow right now, and would rather build it myself, so they can keep there fancy schmancy trucks. I almost swapped in a Cummins to build up, but than i thought it over. There are many, MANY, cummins conversions, but theres very few modified IDI's(i know theres a reason for that lol) so i think it will be cooler and more different. Not just something hundreds have done before me

 

[sle2115]

The merging of the two lines on the GM I saw wasn't a real task. IIRC, they used a compression type fitting. It was like a NOS injector, rather than a "t", bot promote better flow I would assume, more of a straight shot at the injector. They had an adapter and the two IP's mounted side by side.

While it would be cool, I honestly wonder if you could ever stuff enough air in there to handle double fuel, even with modest IP's. Like you, I have thought about diving into the IP's and seeing what I could do. Yes, it would take some money for tooling etc., but I enjoy that kind of work anyway. Currently, I am taking Ph.D. classes, sole provider for my family, have a 5 year old daughter etc. and just don't have the time. I have quite a bit of experience in performance gassers and supported my family doing engine machine work in two different shops. That being said, you never know, you might be able to build something that would offset the expense and the rest of us would buy from you!!!

If you were to go "way" low compression, you could probably take advantage of the fuel/air that two IP's and two turbo's would push, but starting such a beach would be a bear. Ken had a sound clip of his at 17.5 or 18 to one, cranked forever it seemed, but sounded REALLY good once it fired up.

 

[82fordtruck]

The merging of the two lines on the GM I saw wasn't a real task. IIRC, they used a compression type fitting. It was like a NOS injector, rather than a "t", bot promote better flow I would assume, more of a straight shot at the injector. They had an adapter and the two IP's mounted side by side.

While it would be cool, I honestly wonder if you could ever stuff enough air in there to handle double fuel, even with modest IP's. Like you, I have thought about diving into the IP's and seeing what I could do. Yes, it would take some money for tooling etc., but I enjoy that kind of work anyway. Currently, I am taking Ph.D. classes, sole provider for my family, have a 5 year old daughter etc. and just don't have the time. I have quite a bit of experience in performance gassers and supported my family doing engine machine work in two different shops. That being said, you never know, you might be able to build something that would offset the expense and the rest of us would buy from you!!!

If you were to go "way" low compression, you could probably take advantage of the fuel/air that two IP's and two turbo's would push, but starting such a beach would be a bear. Ken had a sound clip of his at 17.5 or 18 to one, cranked forever it seemed, but sounded REALLY good once it fired up.

I agree with this. A grid heater would probably start that ****** right up. That or a hydraulic starter with an auxiliary pump to get RPM's up fast. His turned over too slow.

 

[FordGuy100]

I agree with this. A grid heater would probably start that ****** right up. That or a hydraulic starter with an auxiliary pump to get RPM's up fast. His turned over too slow.

I agree with you. I think if I were to build a low compression IDI I wouldnt use the glow plugs at all, and just give it a nice healthy dose of ether. Thats how we start our D2 CAT, it doesnt have glow plugs or a grid heater, just turn it over and start spraying in the ether.

 

[Freight_Train]

Dual IPs are just a waste of time and money for us.If you want massive output then get an inline injection pump for a 8 Cylinder engine and have custom made tower,Lines,and Might need a custom intake to clear the pump.Dual pumps would cost as much if not more cause you would have to design a custom dual tower,a custom pully setup if you belt drive them like the chevy version or a custom dual gear setup(would have to either add another gear or have a pump custom made to run in reverse.Then you would have to figure out how to time 2 pumps exactly the same or you could end up with one pump shooting fuel into the injectors and the next one a millisecond later shooting fuel backwards though the other pump.

 

[Agnem]

You need to pretty much call DPS more or less every day to get a hold of them. You might try getting in touch with Darrin Tosh. Sometimes he goes there physically, and can relay the message. I'd start with a DPS pump, and then get the engine to the point where it can handle the EGT's, then if you still don't have enough fuel, look at doing something different. I don't think there is any point in planning an IP change, when you have so much other work to do first.

 

[Hook_A_Chain]

Yah, i was just throwing around the idea to see if it was worth it or not and it isn't....I'm sure i'll be able to keep my EGT's under control with a DPS built pump for my specs...I'm probably going to use the XX31 pump instead though. Nice, healthy dose of ether...to a diesel? lol...read the back of the ether can next time your spraying it into the D2, it will read " NOT FOR USE IN DIESEL ENGINES" I would spray it into the D2 also, as i do with some farm tractors when all else fails, but not into my pickup....after all, thats the excuse i have for tearing the engine apart, the guy before my used to go through cans and cans of ether in it, and the motor got fed up with that one day....
Also, that clip was in 50 degree weather, which i know isnt that cold, but its not too warm either. I'd like to know if the motor was warmed up before he started cranking it over....I don't really look forward to looking like an idiot cranking over my truck for 30 seconds straight everytime ive just got to shut it off to put some fuel in it...hopefully better manners come with warmer weather and leaving it plugged in over night on chillier evenings.

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Many older diesels come with a "ether injection system" for starting. The starting fluid I buy states on the can "for gasoline and diesel use".

Remember that there's lots of commercial diesels that do not use glow plugs or grid heaters and ether is the way it's done.

 

[Hook_A_Chain]

i know some john deeres had that....and at least the model im familiar with that had it, you didnt want to use it, and it was common for it to screw up the engine....Ive never seen a can that said that but ive never really tried looking for one either, guess ya learn somethin new every day......all the cans that where behind the seat of my truck clearly said not for use in diesels, so the guy must not have been to bright , and i know of someone who has harmed there 7.3 IDI with ether....
It seems like it would only hurt it if the engine was already warmed up and you used it, and several cylinders fired at once...

 

[Hook_A_Chain]

Remember that there's lots of commercial diesels that do not use glow plugs or grid heaters and ether is the way it's done.

Yah, i did forget about those....but i'd rather crank it for a little while than taking the risk on a motor that im putting plenty of time and money into to build...before i tore it apart id spray ether in it all the time, the damage was already done from the previous owner anyway....plus i think getting out, poppin the hood, spraying ether in it, closing the hood, and getting back in would take about just as long anyway ;p

 

[FordGuy100]

Yeah, there is no possible way to start our D2 when the engine is cold without ether. And yes we use the stuff that safe to use on diesels. It doesnt really take much, about a half second to maybe a full second of spraying to get it going. I doubt it has all that high of compression (Its a late 40's, early 50's D2, originally it came with a pony motor but we put on a 12 volt starter).

I was just saying, if you were to build a low compression idi and you didnt use a grid heater and you unhooked the glowplugs, that ether would probably help out the starting of it. Your not supposed to use ether when the glow plugs are hot, because they can cause it to ignite and all hell to break lose.

 

[Hook_A_Chain]

well....i've come acrossed a cheap 96 4x4 ranger without a motor(in it at least, comes with 2 tho lol), so i decided to scrap my current project(what this post was about) and stuff a cummins into the ranger with a "few" mods ...was dissapointed to see the one being built by the shop in FLA after i decided to do this, because it will seem im just copying them, but gotta do what ya gotta do to have fun...

 

[FordGuy100]

well....i've come acrossed a cheap 96 4x4 ranger without a motor(in it at least, comes with 2 tho lol), so i decided to scrap my current project(what this post was about) and stuff a cummins into the ranger with a "few" mods ...was dissapointed to see the one being built by the shop in FLA after i decided to do this, because it will seem im just copying them, but gotta do what ya gotta do to have fun...

That sounds like a cool project, but it wouldnt be as cool as a twin-turbo'ed IDI. I mean if you go and pop the hood of a cummins powered ranger at some local diesel meet, or what not, people will be impressed, dont get me wrong they will. But if you went to that same diesel meet and showed them your custom, one off, twin-turbo'ed IDI and they will say to themselves wow, that guy has put alot of effort and enginering into that rig, then you will recieve the up-most respect. But its your money, do what you want with it.