The NIGHTMARE TRIP! Will I be asking too much of a IDI Turbo?

[fordgirl4by4]

Our weekend trip to our remote Mountain property was a nightmare PULL! Loaded trailer weighing 9600lbs with a IhC 2504 tractor, 1989 F350 2wd srw CC truck with a low mileage 460 and c6 with 4.10 gears and every trailer pulling option, even air bags, weighing 8600lbs without driver.
Reason for this truck vs my IDI's were most are 3.55 gears, and my daily driver 4wd srw cc na6.9 zf5 4.10 wouldnt even move the load outta the hill in front of my house on a test pull.
We did 30mph and got 5.7mpg with this 460 truck pulling three BAD BAD BAD mountain passes from our house in Northern Wa, over SR20 in the north Cascades, Rainy pass, washington pass, and Loup loup pass on SR20 and then a pull outta Tonasket from 900ft to 3600ft in 14 miles. All two lane road with limited pull offs, NO services, and 20-30mph curves the whole way. And on the verge of overheating the whole way at 40-60 degree temps. And a brake master cylinder that got mushy on return trip limiting braking, causing us to run in 1st gear down 6-7% grades at 4500rpms

The question? Will a 6.9 studded with ATS factory turbo, new pump, bb codes or better pull this load or more during summer months often? I need to make this run monthly or more at 60-100 degree temps, with limited services and limited pull off spots. Speed is not a big concern but reliable performance is, this will be a ZF5 with factory dual mass or south bend clutch. Can I stop or slow this load down grades with a diesel?

Should I just buy a newer diesel? It was a scary trip I dont want to repeat, I have lots of 6.9/7.3 truck but am SEVERELY concerned now, seeing a 460 wont do it.

 

[franklin2]

I don't understand why the diesel would not pull it up the hill at your house? If it won't even get going I don't see a turbo helping it much.

You may need to upgrade to something bigger than a pickup. None of the pickups in this era have very good brakes. I was pulling a 10,000lb backhoe on a 2000lb trailer, and I made it but it was a scary ride. I went back and got the backhoe with the same trailer, but with a single axle large dump truck with air brakes. It handled the load very nice, and the trailer brakes were not even hooked up with the dump truck. A pickup, I don't care if it's newer or not, does have it's limits, especially in terrain like you are describing. If you have to make this run very often, a bigger truck would get rid of the nail biting factor.

The only problem is you will probably need a cdl license, which is not that unreasonable carrying a load like that all the time.

 

[fordgirl4by4]

I know this subject is not going to end well! The terrain is some of the worst out there and 89 miles between services on the BEST day! I have a Farm so I can run Farm exempt vehicles between the properties but dont want to be hassled for it. Miles are about 190 one way and all up and down high mountains. The worst part is I need seating for 5-6 people which is the family!!!!!! So crew cabs only, and I MUST have 4x4!
My trailer is rated for 14,000lbs and is rear pull not gooseneck, has good 12x2.5" brakes and I use them more than the trucks brakes in dry weather.

So 18,000 combined weight often in a IDI? Should I upgrade before I sink alot into my build? I see people pull these passes with weight but WOW! it scared me

 

[franklin2]

A goose neck trailer would help in the handling department. What scared you the most? The handling around curves or the braking going downhill?

I really don't see a problem with the diesel pulling it. I pulled the backhoe on interstate 64 up Afton mountain, and it got down to about 30 mph. I have no turbo. It was slow but it pulled it up. The problem was when I went down the other side. It was going faster and faster, and it was very unstable. The backhoe bucket swaying back and forth wasn't helping matters. Once I got over 45 mph it would do the "death sway". I was doing ok till I hit a little bridge down at the bottom with a bump, and the it started swaying out of control. I had to reach down and manually apply the brakes on the trailer without touching the brakes on the truck. That brought it back in line. When I got to the bottom of the hill I pulled off into a rest area and turned the back hoe around, and backed it up on the trailer. That gave me a lot more tongue weight and the rest of the trip went a lot better.

Have you experimented with how you are loading your trailer?

 

[towcat]

If you want to stay off the commercial side of things, my suggestion is a F350 SC or CC 4x4 either 6.9 or 7.3 turbo PLUS INTERCOOLER. zf5 trans, hydroboost brakes. you will be every bit a F450 without crossing into commercial DOT realm.

 

[fordgirl4by4]

No issues with control at all, only concerns are braking and reliable up hill battles in hot weather. This trip was a Automatic and wife drove most the way, engine braking sucked with tach maxed out and at 35mph in 1st gear waiting for a grenade to go off. (driveline, tranny or?) My build was going to be with a ZF5 but diesel compression braking sucks.

I havent pulled this kinda load with an IDI, My daily driver F350 6.9 struggled to get to second gear with a zf5 in 1/2 mile slight hill in from of my house. I have a 1995 Factory turbo idi swapped into a 1986 with c6 that pulled it but it has 3.55 gears and I knew it wouldnt pull in the passes, not to mention it has 288,000.

I'm just having doubts about my engine choices now, think a need something with a jake brake and 4 wheel disc, I have a family to think about too. I dont want to break down.

 

[david85]

It sounds like your 460 has cooling system issues. A well built and cared for IDI will always get you there. Just don't expect to be the first to arrive.

Monitor your Pyrometer!!! At those kinds of speeds, loads, hills and altitudes, it becomes even more important. I second the suggested intercooler but this starts to get involving. Is the 1986 2wd? If so, you can simply regear it to 4.10s or even 4.56.

How steep was that driveway? If it was comparable to a boat ramp, I can see why it couldn't pull it. Highways rarely are that steep though.

 

[towcat]

No issues with control at all, only concerns are braking and reliable up hill battles in hot weather. This trip was a Automatic and wife drove most the way, engine braking sucked with tach maxed out and at 35mph in 1st gear waiting for a grenade to go off. (driveline, tranny or?) My build was going to be with a ZF5 but diesel compression braking sucks.

I havent pulled this kinda load with an IDI, My daily driver F350 6.9 struggled to get to second gear with a zf5 in 1/2 mile slight hill in from of my house. I have a 1995 Factory turbo idi swapped into a 1986 with c6 that pulled it but it has 3.55 gears and I knew it wouldnt pull in the passes, not to mention it has 288,000.

I'm just having doubts about my engine choices now, think a need something with a jake brake and 4 wheel disc, I have a family to think about too. I dont want to break down.

i've towed plenty of properly loaded trailers and a few sketchy ones too, never had a problem compression braking with my intercooled turbo idi. don't know what else to tell you.

 

[IDIoit]

first of all, I absolutely love my IDI.
many of the IDI owners pull with them.
without issues, but they have them set up to haul.
innercooler, hydroboost, geared. etc.etc.
my 7.3 IDI has 3.55s, I only pull light loads with mine.
I wont pull anything over 3 tons with it.
it will handle it,
however, if im pulling that kind of weight,
over the terrain youre talking about,
hands down I grab my 01 powerstroke.
the PS is a F250, the IDI is a F350.

I have towed my 7200ish pound truck with a 2k trailer up 12 degree inclines, without a problem with my truck.
my trailer is a huge pile tho,

I may get castrated for this, but I would buy a newer truck.
especially if youre hauling all the time.
these old IDI's can handle it.
but my PSD loves it.

as long as its a 7.3, and its in a ford truck!

 

[LCAM-01XA]

IMHO you need two things, and none of them is power-related:

1) exhaust brake - I'm the a-hole who engine-brakes in 2nd gear at 3000 RPMs coming up on the only (blinky) red light in town on Sunday morning, but when someone decides they just can't wait a few minutes for church service to start in order to meet God, I can lay on the brakes and the truck will come to a near-instant screeching halt even tho it just went down a 10% grade a few miles long We already run two remote-mount PacBrake units (air-actuated, but you can get them in electric from other manufacturers), and we just picked up a third one for the better half's pride and joy. Proper "Jake" (compression-release) brakes do not exist for light-duty engines, but no worries as the "flapper" style still works pretty great, especially if you get one of the new self-regulating models. By the way hitting the exhaust brake at high speed while a ZF is in 5th gear can make it (the ZF) produce sounds that would be right at home in a horror movie - downshift is highly recommended even if you already have the RPMs to make good use of the backpressure

2) more gears - diesels tend to have a fairly narrow powerband, IDIs are a bit more flexible in that department than others but still could use some help. Two options here:
a) if you want the easy way out find an auxiliary transmission, often called a "Brownie" (from Brown-Lipe IIRC) - those can be had from 2 to 4 gears, the more the better but within a reason, a 4-speed will have many ratios overlapping to the point of uselessness in a pickup truck and will also be quite likely to break U-joints in its lo-lo range. Realistically a 2-speed (either under-direct or direct-over) aux box will work great for most folks needs, and a 3-speed (low, direct, over) will allow you to do pretty much whatever you please. Obviously do not shift it while in 4x4 mode at the t-case, unless you run a divorced t-case like Greg5OH on here and put the aux box between the ZF and the t-case.
b) if you want the ultimate strength you can grab a SAE bell out of an IDI-powered school bus or dump truck and run a medium-duty transmission behind that - older RoadRanger RT/RTO 610/6610 are sweet behind light-duty diesel engines, you'll pretty much never ever have to worry about replacing a clutch again let alone doing any repairs to the transmission itself, but you'll pay for that peace of mind in fab work (need mounts, clutch linkage, cab floor mods, and a divorced t-case setup). It's been done already, in several Dodges and at least one Chevy/GMC, but to my knowledge never behind an IDI - you'd get to be the pioneer

 

[PwrSmoke]

FWIW, my '86 spent a good part of its life towing at 18,500 GCWR. You can see the specs below. That's 1,000 lbs over the limit, in case you didn't know. The load consisted of an 8-foot overhead camper on the truck and a 30-foot trailer behind. There were times when I wished for more power, but you just have to learn to work with what you have, show some mechanical sympathy and if you are going to work the truck really hard, make sure it's in tip-top shape in all respects. I never had any particular issues related to the workload, but I was content living in the slow lane and taking care with the equipment. I watched the pyro and the water temp gauge and drove according to the temperatures and took the "hurry up" out of the equation. Slow down as needed. Back off on the throttle as needed. Gear down and rev up as needed. Pull over and let it cool off as needed. Whatever it took.

Some people expect too much from their IDI trucks or are in too much of a hurry and ignore the mechanical sympathy part of the equation... resulting in trouble. To be honest, if you can't do that, you are better off with a much newer truck that is rated for more capacity. And many newer trucks ARE rated for more. What you intend is right at the limit of an IDI truck in new condition, much less one that might be 30 years old.

 

[junk]

Truck should handle it fine. Like others have said it won't be a speed demon. I've pulled my 30' enclosed trailer where the truck and trailer weighed right at 18,000. The truck handled it fine. Wasn't speedy, but I could do the speed limit. This was my 93 with factory turbo and stock pump turned up a couple flats.

 

[Greg5OH]

going slow up big hills is one thing, its acceptable, but having to pull over to wait for it to cool down is NOT acceptable IMO. The cooling system SHOULD handle the idis rejected heat at peak torque. whether that means getting a bigger rad or more fans w.e. the case, I consider overheating a failure. Like OP said, he hardly has any places to pull over to give the truck a break. What Lcam said, a splitter would be awesome! with teh ZF you are either wound up too high and have no torque, or revs are too low and you got no horsepower there.
I have yet to tow with my new setup but it feels TORQUEY with the hx35 and intercooler. Unloaded in an 8k lb ruck I have yet to reach past 900F on the pyro. Flooring it in 4th.

 

[stealth13777]

I'll throw the built 460 option out there. They can make a ton of power especially de-smogged. Might not even take a ton of work to fix that motor up. But that doesn't fix the brakes. Can't speak to idi's towing that much, but lots of guys with good experience have commented above. Another option is a newer super duty powerstroke and add an exhaust brake. The newer trucks are rated for a ton more weight, and are built accordingly. I have seen them pull big loads really well, but not in that serious of terrain (we just don't have it over here). Just some extra ideas, probably not a factor here.


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[fordgirl4by4]

Thanks everyone, Guess I will continue on my build with my idi and F350 4x4 with additions of some better parts and making sure everything is up to par. A splitter isnt a option really for me in my current 4x4 chassis and driveline setup that I already spent money on.
Any recommendation for clutches for heavy loads? I HATE my current LUK single mass flywheel conversion and really want a dual mass again, I have two new stock valeo clutch kits and was going to do a lucky mod.
Also think I really will need an intercooler, but was hoping to keep my A/C too any recommendations for one that I could source off ebay or?
The Wifey really wants an auto but after the trip she has agreed that a zf5 is the only way and she will just have to learn how to use one better. (shes scared on boat ramps and hills)
Again Thanks, I was really NOT wanting to buy a newer truck right now, I'll wait for some screaming deal on a 7.3 stroker zf6 to fall my way until then its going to be IDI's

The 460 option is GONE!!!!! the 5.4-7mpg is unacceptable on 400 mile trips