So I'm curious...

[ghunt]

Why is it that International (or Detroit Diesel, for that matter) couldn't get a mechanical direct-injected V8 diesel into the light truck market, when the Cummins 5.9 did it starting clear back in 1989?

 

[Agnem]

The decision to go indirect was strictly a marketing one by Ford and IH. Indirect injection is quieter and cheaper to build. The injector nozzles are simpler and less expensive, and can operate at a lower pop presure. Chevy and Ford got the diesel light truck market on it's feet in the early 80's. When Dodge was ready to jump into the foray, the public had about 8 years of experience with diesel pickups, and they bet that some percentage of the market would be willing to put up with all that clatter. Since it was a 6 cylinder, the cost of injectors was offset. Not sure how old you are, but think of it this way... it's 1983...Your a farmer. Probably in your 30's or 40's and you need a new pickup. You have always had a gas engine in your truck, and like the smooth ride, the quiet power and ease of maintanance. Your only familiarity with diesels may be your John Deere or International tractor. You have often been forced to use either to get them to start in the dead of winter, and you know how much of a hassle diesel fuel is at those temps. You go truck shopping, and stop at a Ford and a Chevy dealer. You look at the usual gas models, but have heard about these new diesel pickups. Your not interested at first, but the salesman is persistent and he shows them to you. You learn about glow plugs, and how hard starts are a thing of the past. Your a business man, so you are particularly interested in the fuel economy. You go for a test drive. Wow! Nice power, pretty quiet too. Vibrations are not harsh, and most of your fears have been alayed. Now imagine for a moment, that the 1st generation Cummins is also available, and you visit the Dodge dealer. The salesman starts it up.... OH HELL NO! That sounds like my #@$%^ tractor. The salesman is running after you as your tailights head back to the Ford dealer.....


Get the picture....

 

[SparkandFire]

I read somewhere that Ford was worried about having trouble selling the noise of a DI engine, thats part of what drove the IDI. They also wanted a form factor that was vary similar to that of a traditional V8 gas engine (for manufacturing reasons and from a sales perspective)

Look at the funny things they did to try and quiet the IDI down, like choked exhaust, restrictor plates and soup bowls.



There's probably more to it than that...

"that which I do not know vastly outweighs that which I do"

 

[Goofyexponent]

The decision to go indirect was strictly a marketing one by Ford and IH. Indirect injection is quieter and cheaper to build. The injector nozzles are simpler and less expensive, and can operate at a lower pop presure. Chevy and Ford got the diesel light truck market on it's feet in the early 80's. When Dodge was ready to jump into the foray, the public had about 8 years of experience with diesel pickups, and they bet that some percentage of the market would be willing to put up with all that clatter. Since it was a 6 cylinder, the cost of injectors was offset. Not sure how old you are, but think of it this way... it's 1983...Your a farmer. Probably in your 30's or 40's and you need a new pickup. You have always had a gas engine in your truck, and like the smooth ride, the quiet power and ease of maintanance. Your only familiarity with diesels may be your John Deere or International tractor. You have often been forced to use either to get them to start in the dead of winter, and you know how much of a hassle diesel fuel is at those temps. You go truck shopping, and stop at a Ford and a Chevy dealer. You look at the usual gas models, but have heard about these new diesel pickups. Your not interested at first, but the salesman is persistent and he shows them to you. You learn about glow plugs, and how hard starts are a thing of the past. Your a business man, so you are particularly interested in the fuel economy. You go for a test drive. Wow! Nice power, pretty quiet too. Vibrations are not harsh, and most of your fears have been alayed. Now imagine for a moment, that the 1st generation Cummins is also available, and you visit the Dodge dealer. The salesman starts it up.... OH HELL NO! That sounds like my #@$%^ tractor. The salesman is running after you as your tailights head back to the Ford dealer.....


Get the picture....

If that ain't the hammer hittin' the nail right on the head, then I don't know how to hammer nails!

 

[david85]

It was also easier (cheaper) to pass emissions with the IDI setup in that era. Fords have usually been about getting you the most truck for your money and that meant not always going for the absolute best. Although personally I see little wrong with indirect injection in terms of fuel economy, power, longevity, and cost of maintenance. In my opinion its a myth that direct injection is somehow naturally more capable of producing a more efficient engine.

IDIs also run better as non turbos especially when you consider the high compression ratio that ours run at. The knock would have likely been very uncomfortable. I also read that ford marketing of the era concluded that most customers equated noisy engines to gas guzzlers which is why they put so much effort into sound proofing the 6.9 (think I read that in one of Jim Allen's articles). Back in the 80s a lot of emphasis was still being placed on fuel economy even though the fuel crisis had more or less passed by the time the 6.2 and 6.9 burst on the scene as the first truly reliable pickup truck diesels.

Aside from the stereotype of tractors and direct injection, I suspect a similar perception could have carried over from heavy duty trucks that were also noisy and smoky. Not exactly the type of thing that would sell a top of the line lariat like mine back in 1986. So I could definitely see how perception could have been helped by focusing on an indirect injected engine as a cleaner, more economical, cutting edge design (even though IDIs were well understood going back before ww2 )

 

[nyteshades]

Don't forget about the diesel Mercedes in the 70's. Diesels also had a taint that they were not only loud, but smelly, leaked oil, fogged out the road, and were other wise undesirable. Add a knock to the motor....

Would you buy any of that?

 

[BrandonMag]

I find it interesting that Ford and IH chose the IDI design for the reason of it supposedly being 'quieter.'

Maybe my truck is louder than others out there, but when it's cold-started, it makes a sound loud enough to wake the dead.

 

[JesterPgh]

Mine's surely due for some servicing, but I can't complain. 360,000 miles and counting, but she sure makes some noise. It's definitely not quieter than my latest truck.

 

[david85]

I sometimes get comments on how quiet my truck is compared to other diesels. After the first 7.3L powerstroke, advances in pilot injection were made so that noise levels could be brought down to where IDIs are and even lower. I did drop compression slightly in the 6.9 but I doubt that would make much difference.

I run a 3" exhaust with muffler.

 

[FordGuy100]

I would say all of the above. I think in-direct injection was also used to help with emmisions. Getting the "flame" going in the pre-cup helps burn the fuel a little better I would imagine.

And...big IDI V-8's did the job for the time period. Search youtube for Cat 3408 (16 liter V-8 IDI. With the pumped turned up would outrun everything on the road I've read).

 

[George D.]

Another thing to consider is with the BD2 pump GM and Ford used it is way less eficiant when used in a direct injection engine but that could just be a reason they used the DB2 I don't know just a thought

 

[Diesel JD]

Again the deciding factor had to be cost. The Cummins/Bosch VE pump is about 800 bucks, the P7100 is closer to 1500. I just rode in my friend's 12V Cummins with a P-pump the other night and man is that thing loud compared to my IDI, and that's with the timing bumped. David, I suspect your timing may be on the retarded side, but still in that range, maybe 7-8 *BTDC. Would love to see it timed properly and see if you could get any more out of it. I guess with the clattery noise I'm not the guy to ask. I always equated a clattery engine with anything diesel which to me meant farm equipment and big trucks/boats and a long service life. I was born in 1981 though and by the time I was aware of things like this, the IDI turbo and PSD were the kings of the construction site and you were starting to see a lot of Cummins engines too.

 

[Alex S]

Also GM had the 6.2 that got 25 MPG and im sure ford wanted to get as close to that as well

 

[Eason]

Mel 1 point you forgot to mention. Consumers were very cautious about diesels in the early 80's because of the GM 5.7 fiasco. Ford was very conservative in entering the diesel market. Eason

 

[david85]

Also GM had the 6.2 that got 25 MPG and im sure ford wanted to get as close to that as well

Whats interesting is ford was already able to get though from their carby 4.9L inline six engines when backed with a manual transmission in an F150. Although some commercials of the early 80s claimed even higher, the EPA tests have since been revised at least twice since then and the number is still around 25 MPG highway to this day.

Ford diesels were only available in higher GVW trucks (F250s) so mileage testing was not required.

My personal best is 24.8 if I remember right

Ultimately it was the higher power of the 6.9 that allowed it to so easily outsell the 6.2s. Talking to guys that were around when they first came out, many ordered them with 4.10 gears expecting diesels to be gutless like the example of the 5.7 and 6.2s that came before. In the end many wished they went with 3.55 instead.