Occasional hydro lock? Huh?

[RavenTBK]

Had this truck a couple of months, but has developed an intermittent issue twice in the past two week that I have no idea of its cause.

Short version: after sitting parked for the day, go to fire it up, and after maybe one revolution, the engine would suddenly stop. Releasing the starter caused the engine to jump backwards maybe 1/8th revolution. Hitting the key again moves the engine forward 1/8th turn, and stops. As if one cylinder is full of liquid. I have witnessed hydrolock numerous times in my mudbogging Bronco days.

Letting it sit for a sec, allows it to fire up as if nothing is wrong. The unknown blockage is draining somewhere...just not into the crankcase, nor exhaust. There is no smoke, no steam, nothing out of the ordinary.

There is no excess fluids in the oil, nor any oils in the coolant. I don't believe it to be cavitation damage. I am leaning more towards excess fuel, but not sure how it could possibly end up in the cylinder in enough of a volume to stop the engine from turning over. Any way for excess oil to build up on top of the piston? Given what I know, that could make sense, since there is no cross contamination of fluids.

Any thoughts? This isnt a regular thing. Just happened twice in the last two weeks. Considering how often I start and stop, I would think it would occur more often. I am open to suggestions to maybe figure this out before I tweak a connecting rod while trying to start.

 

[CaptTom]

If no coolant is missing, oil would be weird, but a leaking injector maybe? My only other guess would be bad/intermittent starter mimicking hydrolock. See hydrolock all the time in boats too, but mostly it's a result of either bad carb flooding out cylinder- stuck open floats with fuel lines/tank higher than carb, or the most common- bad water filled risers/manifolds(parts that cool the exhaust before it leaves the system)- nothing like it in vehicles though.

 

[riotwarrior]

What truck what engine...MORE details about it...

If I was to say...hazard a guess...block worm....cavitation...look in the FAQ's it's all in there...

Welcome to the forum btw..the most knowledgeable resorce on these trucks and engines.

 

[yARIC008]

Sounds exactly like what happend to me with cavitation, shortly thereafter got massive amount of oil coolant mix. Simplest thing to do is just send an oil sample to blackstone, they can easily tell you if it's fuel, coolant, or oil (unlikely unless head is cracked). We can all sit around and guess all day, but based on what has been said so far there is no other way to know for sure.

 

[RavenTBK]

Type truck is in my signature. In case its too small to read, its a 1990 F250 CC 2WD ZF. Since I'm posting in the IDI forums, obviously its got a diesel. Since it is post 86, it is, by default, a 7.3. Really only thing missing from the original post is whether its aftermarket turbo or NA. Its NA. My wife is PMSing...apparently its rubbing off.

I'm not losing any coolant, nor has my oil level risen. The oil looks and smells just as "oily" as it always has. Doesnt appear to be washed out or smell like diesel. There is no creamy froth on the inside of the cap or under valve covers indicating water contamination of any amount. The radiator shows no signs of oil residue on the innards of the cap or overflow bottle.

I put in for a test kit from Blackstone. What levels of coolant and fuel in the oil are considered "acceptable"? Obviously things naturally sweat and weep in a 22 year old engine, so there will be some miniscule amount, especially since God only knows the last time the oil was changed before I purchased it two months ago. Have to save up for all that oil that required to do a change.

I didnt know if there was any other knowledge out there on the forum from anyone else that has experienced something similar to this, as it doesn't fit the many pages of search results for whats formally accepted as block worm. I will remember next time not to bother posting and continue to silently lurk like I've done for the past several years.

 

[yARIC008]

Mate, unless i misread something it doesnt seem anyone here was that mean to you in telling you to stop asking questions and to just lurk... For the oil sample, blackstone has universal averages for this engine so they can pretty well tell you what is normal for all their tested parameters and they give you a nice write up on what their professional opinion is on the situation based on the sample. Good service i always think.

 

[riotwarrior]

RavenTBK, thanks for stating what your engine/truck is that can be helpful in diagnosing the problem, as for your signature there is nothing what so ever in the signature are of your posts..if you cannot see the signature in your posts no one else can. No big deal it's not difficult to fix in the user control panel area, I'm sure you will get that all sorted out.

As for hydrolocking, the one way I can think of is next time your having this problem, pull the glow plugs, and use a remote starter to turn engine over (NOT IN GEAR) and observe for any fluid discharge out the glow plug hole. If there is a cylinder that has for instance cavitation, and the piston stops above the pin holes no fluid would get into the cyl but may get into the oil, if it's marginal amount it may not mix in the oil and boil off rather quickly. If the piston stops below the pin hole and fluid does build in the cyl then when you crank the engine, it's going to hydrolock if enough fluid is in there. It may blow by the rings slowly over a few moments time and then you can crank away...just sayin is all...all guessing here but theory is good!

As for blackstone, only heard good things about them but no personal experience yet.

I suggest ya keep posting and reading through the site. We are all easy to get along with so have fun and ask lots of questions people are bound to answer...

JM2CW
Al

 

[hesutton]

Take a breath and relax. These guys aren't busting your balls, they really are doing their best to help. Pull the glowplugs and look for any fluid on them. If there is fluid, there's a problem. Blackstone or any other used oil analysis company can give you some good info on what is in the oil that isn't supposed to be there. I had a bad headgasket that was rather silent as far as symptoms go, but a UOA showed coolant comtamination (nothing that was visable in the oil during collection). Pulled the head and sure enough, leaking at #1 cylinder.

Heath

 

[RavenTBK]

Figured I would kick this back up to the top for further consideration. If you prefer to read the whole story to get my interpretations, please do, but the meat of this post is in bold text. Photos of what I see are also attached.

Has anyone experienced water (not coolant) intrusion into the intake via the air cleaner lid?

As an update: Two weeks ago, the truck exhibited the signs of lock right in my driveway. I hopped into the car and went on to work, with the plans of popping glow plugs to see what shoots out. It has been sitting for the past two weeks. In my area, we usually have afternoon rains.... PLUS we just had 16" of rainfall during two days last week due to Tropical Storm Debby.

Finally getting around to it on this holiday week. Spent a few hours on her between thunderstorms. Got 7&8 removed, still locked up. I just happened to pass my light over the intake where the air cleaner sits, and noticed a reflection. Removing the grille, I see it is water. Confirmed by smell and taste. Water only, no coolant. It is about 3/16" deep in the intake manifold.

My oil level has risen slightly...which I guess is to be expected with all that sitting up top....or maybe shes been sitting so long now, that every last drop has drained back down. There is no condensation on the underside of the oil fill cap...so not 100% sure.

I made a mental connection that these two or three days in the last month that this hydrolock has occurred, I believe it has rained. Not 100% sure, as I havent been keeping a log. However, it makes more sense than cavitation damage does, given the symptoms.

As for the source of this water intrusion, it appears that rain water is collecting on the lid of the air cleaner, and draining down the hold down bolt into the intake. There is fresh rust on the lid where there was a pool of water recently. The rubber washer on the lid is intact..but maybe not sealing nicely after 20 years? I intend on using some blue RTV to try and close her up until I manage a part number for a new rubber.

My plans are to remove the remaining six glow plugs, and crank the hell out of her to blow out all the accumulated liquids in the intake manifold, then replace the plugs, fire her over, and let her idle a few hours till shes hot to boil out any water that might of been able to drain down into the oil. An oil change is in the future this afternoon as well, should I get her running well enough to make the trip down to the shop.

Any issues with the above plan?

High res photos (56k fail):
Intake1: http://random.removed.us/350/img_5b7b-c922.jpg 2.4MB
Intake2: http://random.removed.us/350/img_65b6-ad03.jpg 2.0MB
AirCleaner: http://random.removed.us/350/img_b445-5bbe.jpg 3.4MB

 

[OLDBULL8]

Yes yes, it is possible for water to leak onto the air filter cover if the hood seal is not sealing. That cover sure looks rusty enough for water to drain into the intake thru a pin hole. Your on the right track removing the glow plugs to purge the water out. Just be carefull as the water will blow with a lot of force , shield your eyes. Ask me how I know. My 90 caved #6 cyl.

Figured I would kick this back up to the top for further consideration. If you prefer to read the whole story to get my interpretations, please do, but the meat of this post is in bold text. Photos of what I see are also attached.

Has anyone experienced water (not coolant) intrusion into the intake via the air cleaner lid?

Calm down. No one is flaming you.

 

[Goofyexponent]

Ok, as stated, an oil sample will tell all. HOWEVER, so will the following.

Keep track of weather conditions befre the hydrolock. Water can not leak into the engine is it has been sunny all week. Try and avoid car washes, manually washing with a hose, etc and see if the problem persists.

When you drive the truck, pull the glow plugs when you get home. Check for coolant, oil, fuel, water in them by winding the engine over by hand and having someone watch the GP holes. Winding it over by hand will keepunknown liquids out of your face and eyes.

If there are no signs of hydrolock, I would be looking at the starter and flywheel.

There are only three things that can cayse a hydrolock in these engines. Oil, coolant and fuel. That is not including water leaking in through the intake.

With any luck it's just a bad injector. If you suspect one, you can get a set for cheap and they are really not that hard to install yourself.

Start by draining the oil and sending a touch in for a test, refill and drive it. Wait for the results. But in the meantime, you can pull the GP's and see what is in there if anything.

 

[oldmisterbill]

I had an occaisional hydro lock -first thing in the morning. Maybe 2-3 times. Got in it drove it to work one day. When I got out of work I hit the starter "CLUNK" then silence -hit starter 'CLICK" got out look around. My starter was hanging down with a peice of the adaptor plate (yes broke the adapter plate") hanging by the starter cable. Pulled head found a bad head gasket -installed head gasked.Pulled engine replaced broken adaptor plate -ran fine but had a vibration????? Hmm pull head -pull piston -check Rod. Bent rod. Replaced rod & piston all was normal again. Grasshopper lern lesson. Find problem B4 problem find you,and your wallet.

 

[CaptTom]

These two statements:

"My oil level has risen slightly...which I guess is to be expected with all that sitting up top....or maybe shes been sitting so long now, that every last drop has drained back down. There is no condensation on the underside of the oil fill cap...so not 100% sure."

"My plans are to remove the remaining six glow plugs, and crank the hell out of her to blow out all the accumulated liquids in the intake manifold, then replace the plugs, fire her over, and let her idle a few hours till shes hot to boil out any water that might of been able to drain down into the oil. An oil change is in the future this afternoon as well, should I get her running well enough to make the trip down to the shop."

Are giving me some pause. Make sure you drain the water out of the oil pan before you start your cranking procedure. You do NOT want to emulsify your oil. Open the drain, and water will flow out first. Get as much as you can before doing anything else. If at all possible, remove the oil pan and clean it out. Water can remain in the pan under splash trays and other double lined pans if not totally cleaned out, which can haunt you later on.

I would definitely remove all water in the intake you can, before cranking, and every glow plug at a minimum.... and yes, as mentioned, do not look over or even around the open holes when turning over the engine, Murphy will guarantee diesel/water in your eyes at best, penetration into the eye ball at worst, as well as under the eye lids. Short quick turns initially, before full cranking. This will get the majority out so as not to spray the entire contents all over the place, and, if the cylinders are full of water, won't heat the rings/cyl where water is your lubricant. Baby steps is your friend with a hydro-lock. Even with open GP holes, if you crank too fast initially, it may be too much for the rods, rings and other stuff.

Baby bumps with the starter at first... if you don't turn it over by hand.

 

[RavenTBK]

After getting arm-twisted into taking the woman out to lunch, I came back and got all the glow plugs out. I used a harbor freight siphon/transfer pump to suck out a majority of the water in the intake, and fed back into the rear runners to suck from the rear cylinders. I placed a paper towel over each GP hole to capture a sample of what was to come out. I also plugged the intake with a rag to keep anything blown upwards from falling back inside. I removed the hot line from the fuel shutoff solenoid, and I also unplugged the harness from the GP controller, to be sure nothing would ground out. Dont need any fuel mist or shorts clouding my vision or starting fires.

I bumped the key a few times to slowly turn over the engine. Geysers of water mist shot from #6 and #8, with very small amounts coming from #4 and #7. All others were more or less dry. Each time a towel was blown upwards, I checked what came out. All of it was pure water, with no smell or taste of fuel or coolant. Once all 8 cylinders had been bumped through and blown up twice, I removed the towels and let the starter freely spin several consecutive revolutions until all the air being blown out was without mist.

Now that I am satisfied that the cylinder contents have been removed, I intend on letting it sit open like this until tomorrow to let it all completely dry. I need to go into work in a couple hours, so no real time to let her idle and get hot like I had planned. What sucks is the forecast for rain within the next 36 hours is 35%; and knowing my luck, I need to find a tarp or something before I go.

Tomorrow morning I plan on beginning at 7am, replacing the GPs, turning her over, and letting her idle till near noon to get good and hot, then comes oil change, as I am forced to assume the odds are in favor of there being an unspecified amount of water that has managed to leak down the cylinder walls and into the oil pan. I am hoping it is not a large enough amount to turn the oil into milk that would require two or more changes to flush. Only wanting to do one oil change to get through this. Or should I bite the bullet and buy the additional supplies to change the oil here first before I fire her off and let her idle? I have the blackstone kit, but of course the directions and common sense ask for the oil to be hot when a sample is taken. Obviously, if I drain+fill first, it wont be hot.

I am happy that it wasn't coolant, nor fuel that was locking up the engine. This definitely keeps the $$ in my wallet where it belongs. So I guess the only real question that remains is drain+fill the oil first, or after I get it running?

edit: After thinking about it some more, I am leaning towards doing it before, and making the cold oil notation on the blackstone kit...knowing there is bound to be a lot of moisture. The dipstick level is about a quart or so above full. That excess has to be water. Dont want a milky mess with 32oz in there. Will post up again tomorrow with new status..

 

[RavenTBK]

... Make sure you drain the water out of the oil pan before you start your cranking procedure. You do NOT want to emulsify your oil. Open the drain, and water will flow out first. Get as much as you can before doing anything else. If at all possible, remove the oil pan and clean it out. Water can remain in the pan under splash trays and other double lined pans if not totally cleaned out, which can haunt you later on.

I would definitely remove all water in the intake you can, before cranking, and every glow plug at a minimum.... and yes, as mentioned, do not look over or even around the open holes when turning over the engine, Murphy will guarantee diesel/water in your eyes at best, penetration into the eye ball at worst, as well as under the eye lids. Short quick turns initially, before full cranking. This will get the majority out so as not to spray the entire contents all over the place, and, if the cylinders are full of water, won't heat the rings/cyl where water is your lubricant. Baby steps is your friend with a hydro-lock. Even with open GP holes, if you crank too fast initially, it may be too much for the rods, rings and other stuff.

Baby bumps with the starter at first... if you don't turn it over by hand.

Apparently I missed your post..or it didnt load properly when I got back from lunch and refreshed the thread. Good info. Although I have already completed the cranking procedure..so if there is some water in there, I am just hoping it was below the level of the pickup tube. Your post has also pushed me the rest of the way over into drain+fill the oil first before I attempt to fire her off in the morning. I am also hoping that if there was a bit of water sucked up into the pickup tube during my cranking, it will be a small enough amount capable of being burned off versus creating a milky mess.

Guess we'll see in the morning eh? Cheers!