I'm starting to think the mechanic botched it up again.

[Ocelotl]

Hi, guys. Apologies for the long first post.

1993 F250 7.3 IDI NA 4x4 5 speed, 188K miles on the frame, originally turbo as per the VIN but it had a NA engine of unknown mileage in it when I bought it for cheap. It's a beat up and worn out truck (see compression test results below) but it's OK for what I need it--as long as it starts. Eventually I'll find a good used turbo engine to swap in.

Not knowing much about diesels (but I'm OK with car and motorcycle repair) I took it to a diesel mechanic acquaintance to see about a hard start condition it's had since I bought the truck about 2 years ago. I only use it every 2-3 months so it hasn't been a big deal. After throwing at it an IP, injectors, glow plugs, controller, lift pump, return lines, etc., it just kept getting worse to the point where it now doesn't start at all. I stopped taking it to him after seeing the truck wasn't getting any better and a couple of other things I didn't like when he was repairing other stuff. I'm now looking into the issue myself after reading up on the IDI here.

I'm thinking maybe the injection pump is not advanced enough, as it was only timed statically by him by lining up the marks. I have a Ferret setup I'll be using for that but first I need to get the beast started to time it dynamically.

Today I decided to change the return lines and o-rings again (he says he did it already) after seeing the faintest moisture around them. I found the injector on Cylinder 8 loose, as in not tight. While loosening the fitting on top of the injector the whole shebang was rotating as far as the still-attached return hose would allow. I hadn't noticed because there's no visible fuel around the injector, but I don't know if it gets burned off on the hot block or what. This is at the cylinder with the lowest compression.

Also, on the Cyl 1 injector, I found a steel washer under what I think is the pulse timing adapter. I'd have thought it should be copper/plastic/aluminum? At any rate, it looks all buggered up and I don't think it can seal very well. Again, no visible fuel around it.

I guess I'll find out tomorrow, after tightening the No. 8 injector, replacing the return hose and o-rings, and following your suggestions on the questions below. Many thanks in advance.

1. Would not enough advance cause a chronic hard start?
2. What kind of washer should the pulse timing adapter have under it?
3. Am I supposed to be able to see right through the pulse timing adapter?
4. When all other systems are working properly, should it start in spite of the less-than-stellar compression test results?

Front
Driver ---- Passenger
Cyl 2 350 ---- Cyl 1 320
Cyl 4 520 ---- Cyl 3 400
Cyl 6 400 ---- Cyl 5 420
Cyl 8 150 ---- Cyl 7 300

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[riotwarrior]

Hi, guys. Apologies for the long first post.

1993 F250 7.3 IDI NA 4x4 5 speed, 188K miles on the frame, originally turbo as per the VIN but it had a NA engine of unknown mileage in it when I bought it for cheap. It's a beat up and worn out truck (see compression test results below) but it's OK for what I need it--as long as it starts. Eventually I'll find a good used turbo engine to swap in.

Not knowing much about diesels (but I'm OK with car and motorcycle repair) I took it to a diesel mechanic acquaintance to see about a hard start condition it's had since I bought the truck about 2 years ago. I only use it every 2-3 months so it hasn't been a big deal. After throwing at it an IP, injectors, glow plugs, controller, lift pump, return lines, etc., it just kept getting worse to the point where it now doesn't start at all. I stopped taking it to him after seeing the truck wasn't getting any better and a couple of other things I didn't like when he was repairing other stuff. I'm now looking into the issue myself after reading up on the IDI here.

I'm thinking maybe the injection pump is not advanced enough, as it was only timed statically by him by lining up the marks. I have a Ferret setup I'll be using for that but first I need to get the beast started to time it dynamically.

Today I decided to change the return lines and o-rings again (he says he did it already) after seeing the faintest moisture around them. I found the injector on Cylinder 8 loose, as in not tight. While loosening the fitting on top of the injector the whole shebang was rotating as far as the still-attached return hose would allow. I hadn't noticed because there's no visible fuel around the injector, but I don't know if it gets burned off on the hot block or what. This is at the cylinder with the lowest compression.

Also, on the Cyl 1 injector, I found a steel washer under what I think is the pulse timing adapter. I'd have thought it should be copper/plastic/aluminum? At any rate, it looks all buggered up and I don't think it can seal very well. Again, no visible fuel around it.

I guess I'll find out tomorrow, after tightening the No. 8 injector, replacing the return hose and o-rings, and following your suggestions on the questions below. Many thanks in advance.

1. Would not enough advance cause a chronic hard start?
2. What kind of washer should the pulse timing adapter have under it?
3. Am I supposed to be able to see right through the pulse timing adapter?
4. When all other systems are working properly, should it start in spite of the less-than-stellar compression test results?

Front
Driver ---- Passenger
Cyl 2 350 ---- Cyl 1 320
Cyl 4 520 ---- Cyl 3 400
Cyl 6 400 ---- Cyl 5 420
Cyl 8 150 ---- Cyl 7 300

I'll start off with

Welcome to Oilburners you will find the most info and best help here bar none. We have a pretty laid back way here and don't tollerate a lot of hard bickering and such. Some friend now and then is the norm.

Take some time, review the FAQ's and the tech section as there is lots of help there. Also look at Hall Of Shame to keep your $$$$ in your pockets!!! Not those of retailers of ill-repute!

Go and fill in your signature so we know all the basic details about your ride.

Now...


My questions...
Any smoke when cranking?
How is the cranking speed? Fast?
How are the batteries in good operating condition?
Is the IP and injectors NEW or remans? And any idea where from?

Lets start with #1

Yes yes it could have a negative effect and hamper starting appearing chronic when in fact it's fixable

#2 good question IIRC should be copper, but I don't remember actually, another will chime in. DO not bend that line down to the injector as it's not good for it!

#3 don't know, another will chime in! I would imagine you should see through it though!

#4 If all is in good operating condition then yes indeed it should start. I see that all but Cyl 8 has ok comp.

Have you determined if that's a valve issue or something else? Perhaps a leak down? You can do a poor mans leak down by using a rubber tipped blow gun, blow in the glow plug hole and listen in the intake and exhaust...this would require 2 people of course!

Again welcome to OB

Others will chime in and offer up some advice

Al

 

[justinray]

I will add this, if the injector was loose, but didn't have diesel around it, then for skme reason your ip isn't ip'ing.

 

[cpdenton]

Mine had no washer in between the timing adapter and the injector. That is a flared fitting or something like that just like the injector tube has. No washer there either. I am pretty sure you can see through it too. That timing adapter is for the factory rotunda set up I think, but it has to stay on the #1 injector, because that injector tube is that much shorter on that cylinder. You have to keep fuel delivery the same overall length.

Good luck with your other concers...and Welcome!

 

[justinray]

Also, these engines will run 180* out of time, although not very well, they run.

 

[Ocelotl]

My questions...
Any smoke when cranking?
How is the cranking speed? Fast?
How are the batteries in good operating condition?
Is the IP and injectors NEW or remans? And any idea where from?

Thanks for the welcome

-It does puff out smoke when cranking, blows out a lot of white smoke once it starts and while it warms up. The first half minute it misses a lot.
-Cranking speed is fairly fast. I always do the crank for 15 secs max and wait at least 20.
-Batteries are both about 1 year old. I've kept a charger on them while trying to start it/purging.
-The mechanic got the pump (insisted he could get a better price) and says it's new at every chance he gets. It has a red Stanadyne tag on it. The injectors I took to him about 2 years ago, when I had just bought the truck, were off ebay from Accurate Diesel. He said he bought and put another set in, but I have reasons to believe he didn't plus he only said it one time. Glow plugs are Berus.

 

[jrad235]

I would re-check Cyl 1, 8, 7. #8 Won't even fire at that number. #7 would be difficult. Basically you are trying to start on 5-6 cylinders.

 

[Ocelotl]

I will add this, if the injector was loose, but didn't have diesel around it, then for skme reason your ip isn't ip'ing.

I was wondering about that. I busied myself posting this and putting the new return lines together and now it's dark. It'll be tomorrow when I can crank it to see if fuel comes out the disconnected lines before I install the return lines again.

 

[Ocelotl]

I would re-check Cyl 1, 8, 7. #8 Won't even fire at that number. #7 would be difficult. Basically you are trying to start on 5-6 cylinders.

Yeah, those are really discouraging numbers. What ****** me off is the mechanic told me he had done a compression test as I had asked and that only one cylinder was lowish, but should be OK. Had I had known the numbers I'd have looked for a donor engine long ago. I made sure to check each more than once and got similar numbers. I checked No. 8 three times hoping it would miraculously go up but no dice.

[edit to add:] At this point I just want to get it started so I can move it around and get it to wherever I can find to swap an engine at myself. Having a sloped drive is not good for home wrenching

 

[icanfixall]

Welcome to the forum. The big reason for the poor compression on number 8 is the loose injecter. Tighten it to 35 lbs torque.. Maybe a little more but not to 50 or 60. As for the number one injecter rotunda timing adapter. It never had a washer under it. That mechanic is ans was a fool. Please forget all that guy told you. We have more experiance and time on these engines than any other group or people on the planet. Not even Ford shops can top us. You might want to tighten all the injecter. Or remove them all. check for crap in the bores. clean it out. Install new copper washers on the ends of the injecter to 35 lbs torque with some antisieze on the body threads. I'm not sure if your injecters are new at any time so you might try to let us know if they are new or rebuilt. That helps. As for white smoke when cranking. Thats a sign your getting fuel to the cylinders. But it really sounds like the timing is really retarded. Try this. Make a center punch mark in the injection pump to gear cover joint. Then move the pump top towards the passenger fender. That advances the timing. Move it 1/8 inch only. Tighten it up and try starting. This may cause it to start up easily or better. That timing adapter is nothing more than a brass fitting that sences the fuel running thru it. There is a clamp that fits on ther with th erotunda meters. Those are long gone from use these days but some have one. I think I have two of them. They have a hole straight thru them for the fuel to reach the injecter and do not ever remove them and force the line to fit. Thats part of the line for that cylinder. This same thing is on number 4 cylinder on the van engines.

 

[riotwarrior]

Gary's right, with the center punch and move your IP it's a good way to get a visual

For some reference material check out these two threads

IP adjustment just as Gary mentioned, NOW this IP is off an engine don't remove yours, this was super easy to show on this unit that's all!!!!
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...nt-for-timing-purposes&highlight=timing+marks


Timing marks for timing lights
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...TIMING-LIGHTS-Tech-101&highlight=timing+marks

Hope this helps you.

 

[Ocelotl]

Welcome to the forum. The big reason for the poor compression on number 8 is the loose injecter. Tighten it to 35 lbs torque.. Maybe a little more but not to 50 or 60. As for the number one injecter rotunda timing adapter. It never had a washer under it. That mechanic is ans was a fool. Please forget all that guy told you. We have more experiance and time on these engines than any other group or people on the planet. Not even Ford shops can top us. You might want to tighten all the injecter. Or remove them all. check for crap in the bores. clean it out. Install new copper washers on the ends of the injecter to 35 lbs torque with some antisieze on the body threads. I'm not sure if your injecters are new at any time so you might try to let us know if they are new or rebuilt. That helps. As for white smoke when cranking. Thats a sign your getting fuel to the cylinders. But it really sounds like the timing is really retarded. Try this. Make a center punch mark in the injection pump to gear cover joint. Then move the pump top towards the passenger fender. That advances the timing. Move it 1/8 inch only. Tighten it up and try starting. This may cause it to start up easily or better. That timing adapter is nothing more than a brass fitting that sences the fuel running thru it. There is a clamp that fits on ther with th erotunda meters. Those are long gone from use these days but some have one. I think I have two of them. They have a hole straight thru them for the fuel to reach the injecter and do not ever remove them and force the line to fit. Thats part of the line for that cylinder. This same thing is on number 4 cylinder on the van engines.

D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? I'll definitely do another compression test at least on that cylinder and report back. I'm really, really hoping compression comes up.

Good to know there's not supposed to be a washer under the timing adapter. Who knows why it's there. Looking at the washer closer, the jagged edges make it look as if the hole has been enlarged.

While searching for info I kept coming back to this forum because here's where I found the most useful info

I don't have new copper washers for the injectors at hand so I'll wait on pulling them and inspecting them until I do. I'll definitely torque them right, though. The injectors are rebuilt, from Accurate Diesel, about 2 years old and 15K miles through them. It runs OK once it starts, but smokes for sure while running.

It has no guts, however. I always chalked it up to a worn out engine but when I asked the mechanic whether he had a timing kit he said no. I then knew he had timed it half-assed like. I'll do the punch mark and 1/8 inch move once I do the compression test again, put the return lines back in and test for fuel at the injectors before I tighten down the fuel lines. I hope that gets it started so I can time it with the Ferret.

Thanks for y'all's help. You guys rock!

 

[gandalf]

All good advise so far. I'll add just two points. As Gary mentioned, clean the bores so there is no carbon in them, or on the bottom seating. Replace the copper washers on the injectors while you're in the process. Be sure to remove the old copper washer from each bore hole or from the injector. You don't want two in there. Use a pick to dig the old one out of the hole if necessary, but be careful not to ****** up the threads.

You said the injectors were rebuilt, and two years old. Have them pop tested, and have the spray pattern checked. Rebuilt injectors can be problematic. Did you say they're Beru? Which model Beru? That should be marked on one of the flats.

Welcome to the forum. We'll help you get your truck running, and we'll help you spend all your money.

EDIT: Wow. Did I really screw that one. I must have been more tired than I realized. The injectors would NOT be Beru. Beru would be the glowplugs. Sorry about that. I hope I didn't mislead anyone.

 

[Ocelotl]

Yeah, I meant that the Glow Plugs are Beru/Motorcraft brand and new as of a few days ago. Injectors are rebuilt off ebay from Accurate Diesel. Injection Pump is supposed to be a new unit the mechanic got, about 4 months old and 2K miles on it. I sure hope that's the case because I'm thinking I might have to take it back.

Today I torqued the injectors and tested the compression on Cylinder 8, the one where the injector was loose. Compression only went up 50 psi and is now at 200 psi. A little better but still a bum cylinder.

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After that I installed new o-rings and return lines, then bled the air out while cranking it with a remote starter and the glow plugs deactivated by disconnecting the white wire at the controller. I bled them by loosening by about 3/4 turn the fitting on top of the injectors one by one while cranking. I don't know how much squirting it's supposed to have but, after spitting out a few bubbles, some injectors squirted out diesel in little streams a couple of inches long and others just sort of bled diesel out without any fuss. The blue diesel-rated hose they gave me at the hose supply place and the red clamps had me thinking Superman

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I also replaced the olives on the line from the filter head to the IP. I wasn't getting any leaks or anything there but they were all crushed up and frayed. I was also checking for air at the schrader valve at the filter head but I never got any bubbles out of it. At this point I'm thinking my problem is not air intrusion.

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After reconnecting the controller and removing the remote start button thing I tried starting it several times (7-8). Wait to start light was on for 8 seconds, then cranking about 10 seconds, then waiting for a slow count to 30 before trying again. That didn't work so I decided to move the pump as suggested. I made a mark with a punch and didn't notice there was a mark there already until I saw it on the picture.

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I moved it by this much:

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Using this wrench I made from a 9/16 cheap distributor wrench. I bent the handle part on the vise using a cheater bar and ground the business end thin on the bench grinder. Got the idea from one a guy on Youtube uses as he explains the timing procedure.

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Still it wouldn't start. Two things I noticed: there's no smoke coming out the tailpipe. Now that I think about it, I don't remember smoke coming out the tailpipe as it used to before. This time I made it a point to check and no, no smoke while cranking. The other thing is that after advancing the timing a bit the engine now shudders while it cranks. Not quite as if it's trying to start, but just a shudder, whereas before the engine would just turn rather smoothly.

At any rate, the next move is to test the batteries and starter under load before I take off the pump and injectors to have them tested. I have to wait til Monday to take them in for that anyway. I'll also see about finding new injector copper washers in the meanwhile.

What do y'all think?

 

[icanfixall]

I think you still have air in the lines. Do this. Crank for 20 seconds. Stop and crack loose the injecter lines at the injecters. Your listening for the hiis of air or looking for fuel to leak out. Believe it you can hear the compressed air leak out. Tighten them up and do it again till only fuel leaks out. Garentted way to start en engine. Mel showed me this at the 2009 rally.. Thats a smart guy when it comes to injection systems.