6.9poweredscout
Bleeds IH red...
wow... thank god we don't have it here....
the scout would fail miseably! that's bs they do that testing! 
-Jon
the scout would fail miseably! that's bs they do that testing! -Jon
I FAILED emissions...horribly
- Thread starter SLC97SR5
- Start date
Black dawg
Registered User
timing makes a huge difference in smoke. at 5 my truck is nearly smokeless. at 10 it is tough to keep it from smoking.
BioFarmer93
OPEC Hater
Not trying to be a smartass here, but let's be straight up about what you have... A MOOSE pump. Not a baby Moose, which would have worked just fine for just about anything you wanted to do with your truck and its stock turbo. A Moose Pump is modded to deliver fuel at levels beyond that which is necessary for good performance, it's made to deliver fuel at levels necessary for high performance. You aren't going to break anything if you turn your pump down 60 degrees (1 flat). Any black smoke you see can be assessed two ways; too much fuel, or not enough air, take your pick. Not trying to be a jerk, but with the cost of fuel these days if there's black out the stack, it aint movin' ya down the track...
Bummer. I'm really happy Cache Valley hasn't adopted the emissions testing, but I'm betting it comes within the next few years 
This issue makes me wish we had an 8 cylinder version of the Bosch VE pump 
They are so much more forgiving!...
Anyway I think your next visit can be a little less stressful if you limit your throttle a bit, remove the air filter again and fiddle with the timing. If you could back off the fuel screw a bit that would help a lot. I don't think you are out of line or giving diesel owners a bad name--I really think its the nature of the beast and most IDI owners in higher elevation have to deal with it. Honestly I wish my truck didn't puff any smoke whatsoever, but after fiddling with it I find it very difficult to get the turbo I have (non wastegated--huge exhaust housing) and the injector pump to work in harmony throughout the entire RPM range. I think smoke is inevitable, but in your case the moose pump likely isn't helping lol
This issue makes me wish we had an 8 cylinder version of the Bosch VE pump They are so much more forgiving!...Anyway I think your next visit can be a little less stressful if you limit your throttle a bit, remove the air filter again and fiddle with the timing. If you could back off the fuel screw a bit that would help a lot. I don't think you are out of line or giving diesel owners a bad name--I really think its the nature of the beast and most IDI owners in higher elevation have to deal with it. Honestly I wish my truck didn't puff any smoke whatsoever, but after fiddling with it I find it very difficult to get the turbo I have (non wastegated--huge exhaust housing) and the injector pump to work in harmony throughout the entire RPM range. I think smoke is inevitable, but in your case the moose pump likely isn't helping lol
87-F-250
Full Access Member
http://emission-cs.com/
I'm interested in this technology. And turning diesel fuel into Syngas and injecting it into the intake 90% and DPF 10%. Yes DPF I'm thinking of putting one on if I can get the smoke low enough. It would make me feel better letting my daughter ride in the truck with the windows down. I like there new cleanable DPF's.
http://dieselemissionstechnologies.com/index.html
I'm interested in this technology. And turning diesel fuel into Syngas and injecting it into the intake 90% and DPF 10%. Yes DPF I'm thinking of putting one on if I can get the smoke low enough. It would make me feel better letting my daughter ride in the truck with the windows down. I like there new cleanable DPF's.
http://dieselemissionstechnologies.com/index.html
I am going to differ with you and you may not like me for it. But so be it.
*step on soapbox*
My daughter rode with my in my diesel burning truck since she was 3 days old. Why? Driving a diesel burning truck was how I made a living and how I put food on the table. Without the truck, we would starve. It's that simple. I'm not trying to make a political statement, I'm not an advocate of hugging a a damn redwood in lieu of jobs. I'm for making a living with what I have. You remind me of the guy who was the lone dissenter in the CARB discussion on delaying implementation of the 2013 rules. Those rules would have finished off the small independent businessman in the state of California and it would have put the entire state in a economic tailspin. the only companies that would have been left standing would be the large trucking companies and large contractors.....AKA big corps. The only dissenter to the pushback of the 2013 rules was a company who would benefit greatly from the retrofit business of diesel burning trucks. Even then, their business would only be able to retrofit a certain range of years, so even they were shortsighted on their advocacy. What you are proposing is a snake-oil approach to the wrong engine technology. What I see is either a misunderstanding on how these motors work OR worse yet, an attack on a group who doesn't reflect a significant readership on your magazine. Let me approach this from both angles. Due to the Comet V combustion chamber design, the IH 6.9/7.3 IDI and the Detroit 6.2/7.3 are quite simply put, doomsday motors. Why? these motors although not the most powerful and efficient diesels, will burn darn near anything that resembles fuel. As long as there is a hint of diesel in the mix, these motors will burn it. What makes these motors unique? First, the precombustion chamber starts the fire going, and two, the lower tolerances and pop pressures needed for injection of fuel. The injection system of these motors will tolerate impurities longer than most other diesel injection systems. now let's look at the other aspect that hits closer to your food bowl. Readership. As much as some members here want to generate sunlight killing clouds of black smoke from their tailpipes, you won't get that with either the IH or DD IDI motors. They just don't push enough fuel to do that. The other makes can/will do so. This can be done by either a fuel plate or a "tune" I don't see you using those motors as an example. Why? Could it be because those motors who are featured prominently on your truck pull kings and dyno queens is what puts food on your table?
Both of the manufacturers in your links won't be considered by CARB even though they will consider urea and self regen DPF retrofit systems a viable idea.
First, the ozone company in your first link is no different from the hydrogen generators. A slick storefront with plenty of "contact us for more details" imho, if you as a company don't have to balls to put out what you have and not hide behind "email or call for further details"........you don't deserve to compete with systems that provide engineering data without the sales pitch. The second company you linked to, won't be considered by CARB due to the fact you can tear apart the system and make it tamperable.
You bring some pretty interesting ideas, but take a look at the application first. I don't think you will get as quick of results with our motors as you would with the direct injection motors. It's two completely different systems and the application is wrong for the linked products.
good luck!
*soapbox off*
Brianedwardss
Registered User
This is just SPAM, plain and simple. When you said "make me feel better letting my daughter ride in the truck with the windows down", I knew. Diesel exhaust, even from an older diesel, is still better to breath than any exhaust emitted from gasoline combustion.
$8,000 for an 'ozone creator'.....
Last edited:
87-F-250
Full Access Member
Diesel exhaust... here is some information on the health effects.
The science goes back and forth but given the choice I'd prefer clean air. I've been to a few unregulated countries with only Adam Smith's invisible hand for protection and I noticed especially in young children they had asthma and breathing issues. Ultra fine particles go directly to the lung bigger particles are caught by our bodies air filters mucus and hair. Once in the lung the particles don't come out. The thyroid glands are like your bodies oil filters and PM can clog it and turn it cancerous. If they take your thyroid your screwed. If I could help save people from pain and make more power...why not. The cost of medical bills will outweigh the purchase price and if more people want clean air it will get cheaper. The technology is here we better get our diesels running right or we'll be stuck with the electric cars.
The writing is on the wall and I want to meet the econuts (myself included I love hunting, fishing, and being in the untainted outdoors... I was supposed to be born 500 years ago and live in God's eden hunting and gathering, civilization (biting the apple) has corrupted humanity...but I'm a journalist trying to get people to see a better more efficient way) half way.
ECS Technologies for Diesel Combustion Enhancement
Introduction
ECS has developed and demonstrated technology that improves the combustion process in internal combustion (IC) engines. This technology relies on the production of ozone in the air intake system of the engine. Ozone is second only to hydroxyl ions as an oxidizer. The use of ozone for the purpose of improving IC engine combustion is not a new concept. Patents as far back as early in the 20th century for this basic concept have been issued. What ECS has accomplished over existing technology is the successful implementation of the concept with hardware that is efficient, cost-effective and reliable coupled with improved ozone production rates.
The introduction of ozone to the combustion process accomplishes several effects. The first is to increase the amount of oxygen available and the second is to facilitate greater reaction rates to the combustion process. Both of these effects have very important benefits to the performance of IC engines, and especially in diesel engines. The increased oxygen content of the air-fuel mixture results in two very important benefits. In a heterogeneous charge engine (diesel), there are portions of the combustion chamber containing liquid fuel and fuel-rich gaseous areas. By increasing the amount of oxygen available in these areas and increasing the overall reaction rate of that oxygen, more complete combustion takes place. This results in lower particular matter and hydrocarbon emissions in the engine exhaust.
Another benefit of the increased reaction rate is to reduce the thickness of the flame boundary next to cooled solid surfaces in the combustion chamber. This effect will reduce emissions of unburned hydrocarbons.
The ECS technology is the result of 7 years of development and testing. U.S. Patent No. 7,341,049 has been issued and two additional patents are pending. In addition, this technology has been operating in the field for over 5 years. The vehicles operating with the ECS device include diesel and gasoline-fueled pickup trucks as well as C13 and C15 Caterpillar, N14 and ISX400 Cummins diesel powered commercial vehicles. The accumulated mileage from these vehicles has been approximately 578,000 miles without any deleterious effects on the engines. Several owner/operator trucking companies headquartered in Joplin Missouri have been using the ECS device during the development process. They report significant improvements in both fuel economy and engine output power. Without exception, they are enthusiastic about the product. As a customer base, they represent excellent market acceptance of the product.
Principle of Operation
The ECS device uses the technique of corona discharge to create ozone in the intake air stream. It consists of modular “elements” that can be distributed within a tubular enclosure. This design principle allows for the standardization of manufacture while also allowing for a wide variety of end products depending upon the application and the results desired.
Chemistry
The science associated with corona discharge and the creation of ozone is very well established. Of the commonly used methods it is considered to be the most viable. However, for use in an IC engine, the lifetime of the ozone from the time it is created to the combustion event will be critical in its viability. Table 1 shows the half-life of ozone as a function of temperature. As is indicated, ozone will exist as O3 well into the compression stroke.
Temperature (C) Half Lifetime
20 1.5 hours
250 1.4 seconds
350 4 milliseconds
Table 1. Half-life of ozone as a function of temperature.
The degradation sequence for ozone is for O3 to decompose to O2 + O. Finally O + O combines to form O2, thereby returning to it’s original state. For spark ignition engines, ozone in the presence of a hydrocarbon fuel will create a mixture of very unstable, hydroxyl-containing hydrocarbons. These compounds themselves are very effective oxidizers. For diesel engines, the ozone must still exist at least as monatomic oxygen before combining to diatomic oxygen to achieve the benefits of its use. However, the existence of O3 at the end of the intake stroke will increase the amount of oxygen atoms in the vicinity of the fuel for combustion.
Documented Benefits to ECS Technology
Reduction of PM and HC in diesel engines
Testing was performed at Environmental Testing Corporation in Aurora Colorado on an Isuzu 4H diesel engine. Table 2 shows the results of that testing for unburned hydrocarbons and PM. These data represent steady state operation at a constant rpm. The results shown represent the averages of five tests for each rpm and performed back-to-back with and without the device.
RPM PM Reduction (%) HC Reduction (%)
1000 20.9 3.5
1200 20.9 1.5
1400 20.9 0.0
1600 34.3 2.9
1800 19.3 6.2
2000 26.9 14.6
Table 2. PM and HC Reduction Using ECS Device
Further testing was performed at Olson Ecologic Laboratory in Fullerton California. The engine used for this testing was a Cummins model M-11 diesel. Hot transient cycle test results showed a 16.7% reduction in HC and a 12.0% reduction in PM. Additional 8 mode steady state tests achieved a reduction in PM of 25.0% using the ECS device.
Increased Power Output
A 2002 Chevrolet Duramax powered truck that had been operating with the ECS device for 27,000 miles was tested on a chassis dynamometer located in Lawrence Kansas. The dynamometer used was a Dynojet friction loaded model. Power sweeps were performed in a series of tests without the ECS unit energized and with it energized. The results of these power sweeps are shown in Table 3. The values shown are maximum torque levels measured.
Test # Max Torque (ft-lbs) Boost (psi) Device Status Improvement (%)
1 700 17 Off
2 730 17.4 On 4.3
3 670 18.4 Off
4 694 17.8 On 3.6
5 634 18 Off
6 652 18 On 2.8
Table 3. Duramax Chassis Dynamometer Testing
For these tests, manifold boost pressure at maximum torque was also recorded to verify that any performance improvement recorded could not be attributed to changes in boost pressure rather than by using the ECS device. As can be readily seen in Table 3, the maximum torque was a strong function of the cumulative heating effects on the engine and intercooler. To be conservative, the tests were performed without power to the ECS device first. Therefore, the performance improvements shown must be attributed to the ECS device.
Ease of Integration
Due to the modular design of the ECS device and its focus on ease of implementation, the integration of these modules into any existing engine bay is easily attained. Figure 1 shows a picture of the device installed on the Chevrolet Duramax truck. As can be seen, the device fits seamlessly into the existing air intake piping with minimal modifications.
Figure 1. ECS Unit Installed in Chevrolet Duramax Truck
Technology Issues
Water vapor in the air quenches O3 production via natural OH- radicals and the production of nitrogen oxides in the corona. Figure 2 shows the effect of humidity on ozone production. The curve marked “A” is the water content of the feed gas. The relative yields are for feed gases of pure oxygen and air.
Figure 2. The Effect of Feed Gas Dew Point on Ozone Production
These data corroborate driver inputs from our field tests. That is, the over-the-road trucks using the device report that the power gains witnessed with the device under normal weather conditions diminish significantly during rainy conditions. If a solution to this effect is felt to be mandatory, it is possible to incorporate an additional evaporator to the existing air conditioning system to dry the air prior to entering the corona discharge. Other drying techniques are possible given the large amount of waste engine heat available.
Safety
The voltage required by the corona discharge elements contained within the device is about 12,000 volts. Like a spark ignition system, the amperage at this voltage is very low. The only current flowing is that required to create and maintain the corona. The unit is designed to contain all high voltage connections of the corona discharge elements safely within the outer case of the unit. The electrically conductive outer case competes the electrical circuit from the power supply.
About ECS
Emissions Control Solutions, LLC is a Kansas-based technology development company. The company’s R&D is targeted at reducing regulated emissions from internal combustion engines. Founded with nine principals in 2007, our business model is to patent developed technology for eventual commercialization by business partners chosen for significant market penetration.
The science goes back and forth but given the choice I'd prefer clean air. I've been to a few unregulated countries with only Adam Smith's invisible hand for protection and I noticed especially in young children they had asthma and breathing issues. Ultra fine particles go directly to the lung bigger particles are caught by our bodies air filters mucus and hair. Once in the lung the particles don't come out. The thyroid glands are like your bodies oil filters and PM can clog it and turn it cancerous. If they take your thyroid your screwed. If I could help save people from pain and make more power...why not. The cost of medical bills will outweigh the purchase price and if more people want clean air it will get cheaper. The technology is here we better get our diesels running right or we'll be stuck with the electric cars.
The writing is on the wall and I want to meet the econuts (myself included I love hunting, fishing, and being in the untainted outdoors... I was supposed to be born 500 years ago and live in God's eden hunting and gathering, civilization (biting the apple) has corrupted humanity...but I'm a journalist trying to get people to see a better more efficient way) half way.
ECS Technologies for Diesel Combustion Enhancement
Introduction
ECS has developed and demonstrated technology that improves the combustion process in internal combustion (IC) engines. This technology relies on the production of ozone in the air intake system of the engine. Ozone is second only to hydroxyl ions as an oxidizer. The use of ozone for the purpose of improving IC engine combustion is not a new concept. Patents as far back as early in the 20th century for this basic concept have been issued. What ECS has accomplished over existing technology is the successful implementation of the concept with hardware that is efficient, cost-effective and reliable coupled with improved ozone production rates.
The introduction of ozone to the combustion process accomplishes several effects. The first is to increase the amount of oxygen available and the second is to facilitate greater reaction rates to the combustion process. Both of these effects have very important benefits to the performance of IC engines, and especially in diesel engines. The increased oxygen content of the air-fuel mixture results in two very important benefits. In a heterogeneous charge engine (diesel), there are portions of the combustion chamber containing liquid fuel and fuel-rich gaseous areas. By increasing the amount of oxygen available in these areas and increasing the overall reaction rate of that oxygen, more complete combustion takes place. This results in lower particular matter and hydrocarbon emissions in the engine exhaust.
Another benefit of the increased reaction rate is to reduce the thickness of the flame boundary next to cooled solid surfaces in the combustion chamber. This effect will reduce emissions of unburned hydrocarbons.
The ECS technology is the result of 7 years of development and testing. U.S. Patent No. 7,341,049 has been issued and two additional patents are pending. In addition, this technology has been operating in the field for over 5 years. The vehicles operating with the ECS device include diesel and gasoline-fueled pickup trucks as well as C13 and C15 Caterpillar, N14 and ISX400 Cummins diesel powered commercial vehicles. The accumulated mileage from these vehicles has been approximately 578,000 miles without any deleterious effects on the engines. Several owner/operator trucking companies headquartered in Joplin Missouri have been using the ECS device during the development process. They report significant improvements in both fuel economy and engine output power. Without exception, they are enthusiastic about the product. As a customer base, they represent excellent market acceptance of the product.
Principle of Operation
The ECS device uses the technique of corona discharge to create ozone in the intake air stream. It consists of modular “elements” that can be distributed within a tubular enclosure. This design principle allows for the standardization of manufacture while also allowing for a wide variety of end products depending upon the application and the results desired.
Chemistry
The science associated with corona discharge and the creation of ozone is very well established. Of the commonly used methods it is considered to be the most viable. However, for use in an IC engine, the lifetime of the ozone from the time it is created to the combustion event will be critical in its viability. Table 1 shows the half-life of ozone as a function of temperature. As is indicated, ozone will exist as O3 well into the compression stroke.
Temperature (C) Half Lifetime
20 1.5 hours
250 1.4 seconds
350 4 milliseconds
Table 1. Half-life of ozone as a function of temperature.
The degradation sequence for ozone is for O3 to decompose to O2 + O. Finally O + O combines to form O2, thereby returning to it’s original state. For spark ignition engines, ozone in the presence of a hydrocarbon fuel will create a mixture of very unstable, hydroxyl-containing hydrocarbons. These compounds themselves are very effective oxidizers. For diesel engines, the ozone must still exist at least as monatomic oxygen before combining to diatomic oxygen to achieve the benefits of its use. However, the existence of O3 at the end of the intake stroke will increase the amount of oxygen atoms in the vicinity of the fuel for combustion.
Documented Benefits to ECS Technology
Reduction of PM and HC in diesel engines
Testing was performed at Environmental Testing Corporation in Aurora Colorado on an Isuzu 4H diesel engine. Table 2 shows the results of that testing for unburned hydrocarbons and PM. These data represent steady state operation at a constant rpm. The results shown represent the averages of five tests for each rpm and performed back-to-back with and without the device.
RPM PM Reduction (%) HC Reduction (%)
1000 20.9 3.5
1200 20.9 1.5
1400 20.9 0.0
1600 34.3 2.9
1800 19.3 6.2
2000 26.9 14.6
Table 2. PM and HC Reduction Using ECS Device
Further testing was performed at Olson Ecologic Laboratory in Fullerton California. The engine used for this testing was a Cummins model M-11 diesel. Hot transient cycle test results showed a 16.7% reduction in HC and a 12.0% reduction in PM. Additional 8 mode steady state tests achieved a reduction in PM of 25.0% using the ECS device.
Increased Power Output
A 2002 Chevrolet Duramax powered truck that had been operating with the ECS device for 27,000 miles was tested on a chassis dynamometer located in Lawrence Kansas. The dynamometer used was a Dynojet friction loaded model. Power sweeps were performed in a series of tests without the ECS unit energized and with it energized. The results of these power sweeps are shown in Table 3. The values shown are maximum torque levels measured.
Test # Max Torque (ft-lbs) Boost (psi) Device Status Improvement (%)
1 700 17 Off
2 730 17.4 On 4.3
3 670 18.4 Off
4 694 17.8 On 3.6
5 634 18 Off
6 652 18 On 2.8
Table 3. Duramax Chassis Dynamometer Testing
For these tests, manifold boost pressure at maximum torque was also recorded to verify that any performance improvement recorded could not be attributed to changes in boost pressure rather than by using the ECS device. As can be readily seen in Table 3, the maximum torque was a strong function of the cumulative heating effects on the engine and intercooler. To be conservative, the tests were performed without power to the ECS device first. Therefore, the performance improvements shown must be attributed to the ECS device.
Ease of Integration
Due to the modular design of the ECS device and its focus on ease of implementation, the integration of these modules into any existing engine bay is easily attained. Figure 1 shows a picture of the device installed on the Chevrolet Duramax truck. As can be seen, the device fits seamlessly into the existing air intake piping with minimal modifications.
Figure 1. ECS Unit Installed in Chevrolet Duramax Truck
Technology Issues
Water vapor in the air quenches O3 production via natural OH- radicals and the production of nitrogen oxides in the corona. Figure 2 shows the effect of humidity on ozone production. The curve marked “A” is the water content of the feed gas. The relative yields are for feed gases of pure oxygen and air.
Figure 2. The Effect of Feed Gas Dew Point on Ozone Production
These data corroborate driver inputs from our field tests. That is, the over-the-road trucks using the device report that the power gains witnessed with the device under normal weather conditions diminish significantly during rainy conditions. If a solution to this effect is felt to be mandatory, it is possible to incorporate an additional evaporator to the existing air conditioning system to dry the air prior to entering the corona discharge. Other drying techniques are possible given the large amount of waste engine heat available.
Safety
The voltage required by the corona discharge elements contained within the device is about 12,000 volts. Like a spark ignition system, the amperage at this voltage is very low. The only current flowing is that required to create and maintain the corona. The unit is designed to contain all high voltage connections of the corona discharge elements safely within the outer case of the unit. The electrically conductive outer case competes the electrical circuit from the power supply.
About ECS
Emissions Control Solutions, LLC is a Kansas-based technology development company. The company’s R&D is targeted at reducing regulated emissions from internal combustion engines. Founded with nine principals in 2007, our business model is to patent developed technology for eventual commercialization by business partners chosen for significant market penetration.
FordGuy100
Registered User
You can do that, I have no problem with you retrofitting that onto an older vehicle. Cost will be an issue with everyone else. Hell, $8,000 is a hefty downpayment on a newer truck that wont have as many issues as an older retrofitted truck.
*soapbox on*
I too am in support of clean air and water. But at what cost? If the cost is killing the economic engine that keeps food on my table, then what good is clean air and water if I cannot survive. We have already seen the "scientific" data that was used to draft the 2013 CARB rules and was proven that the data used was a complete fabrication by the propourting(sp) scientist. Even if the data was valid, the arbitrary decision to kill off the livelihood of a majority of the population is completely unacceptable. The CARB rules as they are currently written, only benefits large businesses. Unless there is a tiered phase-in program using affordable reduction technologies, will I be in support of the 2013/2015 CARB rules. The draconian measures forced upon us by appointed administrators is at the least unjust and at the worst unconstitutional.
Put forward gradual phase-in plan that we can use as a model for the rest of the world to take notice and follow, if by far better to achieve your lofty goals than what is currently happening that makes us the laughingstock of every economically developing country.
*soapbox off*
You can't turn a Moose Pump down without creating more problems. I like the fuel supply limit idea. Figure out a way to put a restriction on the supply line for the testing only. A small machined insert stuck in the end of the hard line to the pump would work nicely. A man made clog in the fuel filter as it were. That would allow it to run fine as long as you stay near idle.
If you have a stock IP you can stick on there only for their emissions testing then that'd be the way I'd go. One for real driving and one for the EPA to suck on.
Heath
Heath
alienturtle
Human
How about a throttle stop so it will not go to full throttle for their test. then adjust accordingly when you leave
The only thing i see with this is that when i had my test done in Arizona the guy made me floor it and hold it there for so many seconds and he watched my tach on the dash to make sure it went all the way to max. Just throwing that out there
The only thing i see with this is that when i had my test done in Arizona the guy made me floor it and hold it there for so many seconds and he watched my tach on the dash to make sure it went all the way to max. Just throwing that out there
Good point, but half to 3/4 throttle on a stock pump will put the engine up to governed speed with no load.
Yes it will.
I had to replace a set of heads a number of years ago. I put it all back together and it was running great. I didn't worry about the timing because it was running fine and sounded good enough by ear. It came time for the yearly opacity test and I just ran it until it was good and warm, like every other year,and got in the lineup. FAILED BADLY. Our test is a 'road course' where they run at various RPMs on a dyno and have a couple of full throttle runs to simulate freeway on ramps, hills etc.
Here are the results for a number of different years with the 'un-timed' one being run on 03/23/2001 (left coumn). The ONLY thing that was changed on the truck was the timing (I can't remember the pre/post #s) but when it was tested on 03/27/2001 the difference was amazing.
Something to think about.
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