Changed IP, now have bad mileage, Please advise.

[olddesertrat]

Hello People:

Here is story. Bought a 1985 F350 with 6.9L and Banks 1st generation turbo charger few years ago. Also has t-18 Borg Warner manual 4-speed and 4.10 gears. Believe ran around 2500 rpm at 65 mph.

On driving from Texas to Las Vegas, NV got average of 18 mpg on highway, which I expected. Continued to get around 18 mpg on highway for around a year, then started getting alot of exhaust smoke.

Got a deal on completely rebuild injection pump so bought it and installed. Did punch scribe mark so knew where to set new injector pump timing.
New pump timing mark would not allign with mark on casing. The injection pump mark is about 1/8th inch low.

Good: 1. Truck runs great. 2. Passes smog.

Bad: Get only 11 mpg. Now run 3000 rpm at 65 mph.

Thinking of couple things could be wrong.

1. New injection pump with old injectors....maybe too much fuel getting pushed through old injectors.
2. Timing is wrong...even tho truck runs fine, can not allign marks with new pump
3. Fuel setting on new injection pump way too high.
4. Maybe wrong injection pump for my truck?

Bad mpg is costing me a lot of money. Please let me know what I need to do to get back my 18mpg or higher. Also would like suggestions for best injectors for my truck.

Later

 

[riotwarrior]

First, welcome to OB

Now how did you remove and replace the IP? Did you remove the four bolts and the tower?

Or did you remove the IP by taking off the three bolts that hold it too the tower!

Where did this good deal on rebuild IP come from?

Answer that riddle first and perhaps we can assist.

Get into the FAQ and START HERE and Tech section and HALL OF SHAME

USE SEARCH, there are TONS of threads on timing and how to swap IP and so on.

Good luck

Again welcome to OB

 

[chris142]

How did you determin your mpg? I have a 6.9,t19 and 3.55's and i struggle to get 16.what mpg are you getting now?

 

[icanfixall]

Welcome to the forum. We have plenty of members in the Vegas area that may help you out. As for marking the old pump timing marks and hoping to install and be timed is not going to work. Every pump you install is internally timed differently. no 2 pumps are the same so don't think because you "made marks" the timing will be ok. You need a meter to time the engine. Not sure what you mean you can't get the lines to match up??? Does the pump look like it leaning over to the drivers side of the passenger side of the engine. Hopefully you did not remove the pump, gear cover & the gear as one piece. If you did that there is no way you can make sure the injection pump gear and the cam gear will time correctly. you may be off a tooth or two. If the pump is tuff to move try loosening the top injector lines at the pump. That releases some of the twisting force exerted by the hard steel lines so its reaier to turn the pump. Hope you can answer the pump replacement questions.

 

[dunk]

Set the timing first, right now you just guessed and have it where it sounds and runs alright but it could be way off hurting power and MPG.

Pump or injectors will not change RPM at speed, only gearing will... Or a slipping clutch but you'd know if that was the case. 2500 at 65 sounds like 3.55:1 gears. I have 3.55:1 and with a C6 turn about 2600 RPM at 65 MPH. 3000 RPM at 65 MPH sounds like 4.10:1 gears. Check your tach because if that changed something broke with tach/wiring/sensor.

 

[Agnem]

That was my first thought. How did you get from 2500 RPM at 65mph to 3000 RPM? Something is not cool with that! If that is in fact true, THAT is where your fuel economy went.

 

[olddesertrat]

Thanks for advice everyone. Did dig forums more and will summarize.

1. Had read previously about marking currently timing on pump my marking pump and tower. Used the factory mark on old pump and marked it's position on tower for my timing mark. Did that and also marked position of teeth on tower gear and cam gear before removing tower and old pump. Installed tower 1st, Always careful to align gear teeth. Then installed new pump, the factory timing mark on my new pump always 1/8th inch below my timing on tower.
New info: Now know timing mark is useless on new pump. Need to get diesel timing light and accurately set my timing.

2. Injection pump was bought from highly recommended and established business in Florida. Can not remember their name at moment. So do trust new pump was actually rebuilt, not just re-painted like e-bay junk.

3. My memory on getting 18 mpg before pump change is good, got the old notes, for tax reasons, to back that up. Mileage was figured by topping off take tank every few hundred miles between cities and dividing gallons into miles between cities. Done for the whole approx 1,000 mile trip between Austin, TX and Las Vegas, NV. Was told by former owner it has 4.10 gears, and has Banks 1st generation turbo charger, no wastegate. Remember reading some time back driving 65mph, 4.10 gears and around 4psi boost on turbocharger, no towing or cargo, should get 18 mpg..and that is what I was getting. Of yes, it has LT245/75R16 tires on truck. Did couple hundred miles to Arizona and back this past weekend. Averaged only 11mpg doing same topping off tank, divide gallons into total miles method. Going to start making few hundred mile trips almost weekly with truck...so need to get mpg up as high as possible.

4. Memory on rpm vs mph may be off. Has been a few years since truck had been run. Core temp sensor on truck does not work. Former owner told me play it save on trip. Hold speeds 70 mph or under and hold rpm at under 3,000 rpm. Seem to remember doing constant 65mph at around 2,600 rpm. However did not write that down. Memory could be off.
On Arizona trip was pushing 3,000 rpm just to hold 65 mph. Would like to know what rpm/mph other members are getting with similar setups on their trucks.
Do have a Michelle gear splitter overdrive in garage has been meaning to put on truck. Need to get serious about that.

In short....need to get diesel timing light and accurately set timing 1st thing.

Thanks to everyone that has helped out on this post.

Later

 

[icanfixall]

You must be registered for see images attach

Ok.. So you removed the pump, Housing the pump connects to and the gear at one time... Sadly thats the wrong way to change the pump. no amount of marks will tell you the gears are properly timed. So lets get more info. What are these marks you made on the gear and housing. Was the engine at top dead center number one cylinder when you removed the pump. When the pump came off and you saw the gear timing marks which mark did you see. The "Y" or the "dot" mark. This is very important. Wont add to this till you have answered these questions so we can continue. This is what the gear timing looks like with the engine front gear plate removed.

 

[riotwarrior]

Hmm...wonder if out a tooth or two...on IP placement...possible

Wonder if http://pensacoladiesel.com/?sl=EN cause they be in Florida and well ok not known for best practices overall....some seem pleased with them...others don't like them...if IP is bad could be reason you lost 7 MPG

Yes you need to get that timed if possible as it's going to tell you plenty. If it still fails to deliver in fuel economy I'd encourage you to seek support from IP retailer explaining it's dumping fuel in.

BTW, did you also change injectors?

Al

 

[olddesertrat]

More good info.

Remember did set engine to 0 TDC. Did not remove front plate. Un-bolted tower, lifted tower/pump together and put some paint of lowest tooth of tower gear then put tower back into place. Lifted again and had paint on tower gear and cam gear teeth for my mark. Then removed old pump, installed new pump to tower, then lowered tower gear so two paint marks on two gears lined up.
Did this few times because thought if tower/cam gear marks lined up, then thought the pump/tower mark I made should also line up. Pump/tower marks would not line up. Removed tower/pump few times and tried re-setting pump into tower. As long as tower/cam gears aligned, the pump/tower marks would never align. Now know that is fully expected pump/tower marks will not align with new pump.
Was very careful to be sure same tower/cam gears teeth lined up. That is likely why truck runs and have not destroyed engine. However now thinking should remove front plate to make absolutely sure all three gears are aligned to factory gear marks. Also know pump timing works...however am clueless to actual timing and need to get diesel timing light to do timing.

riotwarrior: Yes, pump was from Pensacoladiesal. Had seen good reviews on-line about them. Now hearing mixed reviews on them. If fixing timing and fuel adjustments do not give back at least my original mpg, will try re-installing original injection pump, still have it, and see what happens.
Also..did NOT replace injectors. Now thinking that is also a mistake. Have some Delphi 6760301 on order and will install before doing timing.

Later

 

[olddesertrat]

Other info. Forgot, so went and looked at truck. Looks like did three timing marks for pump gear. The lowest tooth paint, remembered that one. Looked at tower, now remember also put paint marks on tower for and on most left and most right gear tooth. This way the gear would be in same position in relation to tower when lifting off and putting on engine.
Seeing taking off front plate would be lot of work. Think my gear alignment is good, however only way to know is to sure is to see the original factory timing marks in position. Is there a way to see marks without taking off front plate? Am thinking of small camera on end of long probe? Any other hints how to see alignment marks without taking off front plate?

Later

 

[icanfixall]

Well now we are making progress on this. Only way to know if the gears are timied correctly is to look in there when the housing or tower as you call it is removed. See my pic. See the drive pin on the injection pump gear. Now look at the bottom of that gear. There is a "Y" that lines up with the cam gear but.. there also is a DOT mark that only lines up with the crank gear. These engines will run with the Y lined up with the DOT but they run horrible. Lak power and smoke but they run. So this is what you need to do. Remove the front trianlge plate to see the three bolts that connects the pump to the injection pump gear. Those are a 5/16 hex and have a 25 lb torque value. Remove them. Nothing will happen even if youy hand crank the engine. What you need to see is the gear in the position I have shown with the drive pinlocation about 4 o clock. Now find number 1 top dead center on the timing tab and the machined line on the dampner. The timing tab zero mark is the short fat probe location. clean off the dirt and you will see it clearly. Now you will be at zero degrees or 180 degrees out. It depends on what you have already done. So not remove the pump but leave the housing in the engine for now. A 9/16 custom bent wrench works best. The pump moves towards the intake and slips to the passenger side and lifts up and out between the two pump mounting studs. The lines can stay on but the feed line must come off as does the throttle cable bracket. Now remove the gear cover or tower. Push the gear as far back in the block as you can. Use a small inspection mirror and lite to actually see the gear timing marks. If anything is incorrect with the gear timing just remove the gear. Now looking at the gear draw a line from the bottom tooth where the "Y" is located to the top of the gear. That will insure the gear is correctly lined up when it set in the engine. Now use a square like is used for woodworking or metal working and place it across the top of the engine front cover. Set the gear in and it should line up to the square if its gear timed correctly. You can play with it moving the gear either direction a tooth or two to see this really works. Another idea is to count up from the bottom "Y" mark 17 teeth each way and make a line across the gear. Now when you set the gear in the front cover that line will be directly lined up with the top of the front plate. YOU MUST BE AT TOP DEAD CENTER #1 CYLINDER FOR THIS TO WORK.
Even if when you remove the pump like I explained and find the gear timing to be correct it will help you sleep better at nite knowing this. Please never remove the tower or housing with the gear and the pump attached. Its plenty of work to fix that mess as your about to find out. I'm suspect that your gear timing is off a tooth or two because of the way you said to removed and reassembled it. When all the conjoined pieces go together like you have done there is really no way to know for sure its gear timed correctly. You can't possibly make marks that will tell you what your eyes can see. That gear must be set in by itself to know for sure. then the housing is reattached to the engine. then the pump attaches to the housing. It just works much better that way. Many are here wanting to help. Just might take a minute or two. If you want my cell number pm me and we can talk thru this.

 

[riotwarrior]

With Gary's picture indicating where to look and what to look for in regards to marks...

I'll include this here

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...tment-for-timing-purposes&highlight=IP+timing

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...OR-TIMING-LIGHTS-Tech-101&highlight=IP+timing

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...1-TIming-tape-and-timing!&highlight=IP+timing

This should assist you to some degree no pun intended with getting your initial timing to work..

I would think you are one of three things here from what you are saying...

FIRST out a tooth complicating timing of engine

Second out 180 deg somehow...

Third and this could be the caveat, is it's not a good pump...

These three are the ones that stand out in my mind as the most appropriate of what could be wrong.

You can see the timing marks on the gears with a light and a small inspection mirror and if you search a few here have had to do just that!

Suggestion....

DISCONNECT FUELS STOP SOLENOID prior to any of this work!!!!!!

One way to confirm TDC compression stroke...

Clean the timing marks, as I've indicated in my three threads where they are.

Carefully bump starter and bring the harmonic up to TDC ONCE you know it's coming up on compression stroke you can bar the engine over by hand to TDC and then check your timing marks.

Remove the little cover below oil fill hole on the IP TOWER and confirm that the three bolts and the locating PIN are in the spot where they are shown in POST #8 of Gary's image.

If you are not at that spot, then your timing is off you can see this without lifting the timing cover off the engine.

Hope that this assists you

 

[FarmerFrank]

Would a bad pump that is properly timed with a kent Moore meter still give bad mpgs?

 

[riotwarrior]

Would a bad pump that is properly timed with a kent Moore meter still give bad mpgs?

If somehow properly timing a BAD pump makes it a GOOD one then no not likely...

A bad pumped timed correctly is still a bad pump...

Most likely it could pick up a bit of power/mileage but not 7 mpg (IMHO)