Lets Talk IP Timing

[tuckerd1]

Hello guys and Gals. It's been awhile since I've been here and posted. Been trying to catch up on some of my OB overdue reading. You guys sure have been hard at it. See some great stuff I've missed until now! Keep it up! Anyway...

What are the effects of the IP timing being retarded or advanced too much from 8.5? What happens to power, EGTs, engine noise and mpg for each condition?

Ive had my timing set by ear/seat of the pants for a year now. I'm getting ready to check it and readjust to 8.5 if necessary. I have a Ferret pulse adapter so I'll see how well it works.

See my sig for mods to the truck.

I just made a short trip over the weekend pulling 20' GN stock trailer loaded with 3 horses, tack and camping gear. Maybe 7-8k lbs. Truck pulled good but I'm wondering what, if anything I'm leaving on the table.

My boost #'s seem low from what some of you guys are posting. I saw a high of 9# pulling some 10-13% grades. I am running an IC and I'm trying to determine how much boost I'm losing there and any in timing and/or other ways.

Max EGTs were 1050 max no matter how long or hard I smashed the go pedal. Transmission temps 195 max. Engine temp on 1/2 on the idiot gauge majority of time with 3/4 gauge max. I haven't calculated mpg yet but I would guess ~10 mpg.

Does Ken leave any adjustment in the Turbo Cal IP? Or is it maxed when he ships it?

All input is appreciated.

 

[FordGuy100]

I dont really know much about the timing thing, others will chime in though to help out. I would say that your timing is a little off, but I dont think it to far off at all. Boost numbers seem a little low, but that could be because of the timing being off. I actually think that being a little advanced causes lower EGT's, so you might be a little past 8.5*.

I heard that Kens pumps are basically maxed, and if you go and adjust them to much more, the pump will fail on you.

 

[hesutton]

Don,
I would also like to know how much I can tweak the DPS IP? I have room for more fuel and my boost and EGT are well below the maximum. My IP is one degree advanced (9.5 BTDC) per Mel's meter at the Tn IDI rally. Just hard to get Ken on the phone. If you do talk to him.....Let me know as well.

Heath

 

[Agnem]

Let's see.... retarded pump : high EGT's, no smoke, low power, low boost.
advanced pump: lower EGT's more smoke, more power, more boost.

Now, that said, for your specific situation, I'd say your under fueling. Your pump is not supplying enough fuel, probably regardless of timing. Otherwise you would see higher EGT's or higher boost numbers.

 

[FordGuy100]

Let's see.... retarded pump : high EGT's, no smoke, low power, low boost.
advanced pump: lower EGT's more smoke, more power, more boost.

Thanks Mel , that helps out a ton.

 

[tuckerd1]

I guess it could be underfueled especially with the IC. Hard to believe with the turbo cal and stage 1 inj. I see black smoke when I hammer it but it doesn't roll out. I was watching Darrin's video of Big Ed and I don't see near the smoke as that. Now I'm not into smoke for some of the reasons some people are, but I do want to get the max power out of what I have.

When I ordered my Hypermax turbo and IC they said I was getting a larger turbo than they ship with a turbo kit with no IC. I can't tell it from the boost numbers though. I see 2-2.5# on cruise at 65 mph pulling what I pulled last weekend. It will go to 5-6# on rolling hills. I maintain the speed very well in those conditions though.

 

[tuckerd1]

Let's see.... retarded pump : high EGT's, no smoke, low power, low boost.
advanced pump: lower EGT's more smoke, more power, more boost.

Now, that said, for your specific situation, I'd say your under fueling. Your pump is not supplying enough fuel, probably regardless of timing. Otherwise you would see higher EGT's or higher boost numbers.

That's what I was looking for on timing effects.

You did notice I have an IC when you made the comment on the EGTs didn't you. I would expect my egts to be low enuf not to have to watch the gauge.

 

[FordGuy100]

I guess it could be underfueled especially with the IC. Hard to believe with the turbo cal and stage 1 inj. I see black smoke when I hammer it but it doesn't roll out. I was watching Darrin's video of Big Ed and I don't see near the smoke as that. Now I'm not into smoke for some of the reasons some people are, but I do want to get the max power out of what I have.

When I ordered my Hypermax turbo and IC they said I was getting a larger turbo than they ship with a turbo kit with no IC. I can't tell it from the boost numbers though. I see 2-2.5# on cruise at 65 mph pulling what I pulled last weekend. It will go to 5-6# on rolling hills. I maintain the speed very well in those conditions though.

Yeah, sounds like its not fueling to its full potential. When I was pulling a boat (4K pounds max) flat ground I was seeing 3-4psi at 65mph, and 6-9psi on the hills. Granted I have no intercooler, but your turbo should be a little bigger like you said, which should compensate for some of it.

Do you guys suppose that the injectors are holding him back, like they were popping off at the wrong preasure or something?

 

[Diesel JD]

From what everyone else with an intercooler and a DPS or Moose pump has said around 9-10psi is all you're going to see. I guarantee if it was non intercooled you'd be at 15-18 and maybe blowing head gaskets or melting down. I think you're doing pretty well at this fuel level, after all the idea of the intercooler with all those mods is not to have to watch the pyro like a hawk and come close to maing out your fuel without blowing something up. You're getting more for your money with those low boost numbers than with 13+ with hotter air, since you have cooler denser air going into the turbo because of the IC. That said, if you can get a hold of Ken and it won't void whatever warranty you have left on the pump, you definitely have room for more fuel, but first get that timing nailed down, just my 2 bits.

 

[tradergem]

Check out the following link about DB2 timing.
http://www.oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm
Hope this helps. Jim

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Let's see.... retarded pump : high EGT's, no smoke, low power, low boost.
advanced pump: lower EGT's more smoke, more power, more boost.

Mel, does that hold true for naturally-aspirated diesels as well? Reasons for asking is that mine mine rattles pretty good at idle, and when tis cold it also blows some white-ish smoke, smoke completely disappears when engine is warm and even when I floor it there's absolutely no black smoke! Additionally, my truck don't seem to make much power until about 1200-1300 rpms, and it really pulls strong near the 2k mark on the tach. When I was picking the truck up the previous owner said he tweaked the pump so I don't burn the valves if I decide to tow something heavy, and from what I've read so far here I bet he actually turned the pump down a bit... Dunno if that's relevant, but truck starts very easy even after sitting for a weekend at near 20F, and once warmed up a restart is almost instantaneous!

My issues with that whole thing:
- truck is a daily driver in urban environment, and rarely sees freeway, so I'd like a bit more power down low.
- fuel economy is about 10mpg city, and right about 3 gallons per hour when kept at 1800rpms steady on the freeway (couldn't calculate the mpg then cause it was snowing and all so I had to shift gears fairly often), so not all that great either.
- I don't tow nothing, actually truck is empty pretty much all the time.

What would you suggest that I do? Truck rattles decently, so would you call the IP timing good? Maybe I need a bit more fuel, especially considering the guy's comment and my lack of use as a tow rig?

Also, where should I look for these markings on the IP and timing gear cover, I guess a quick glance there can tell me if timing has already been messed with and in which direction... Anyone got a pic of these timing marks maybe?

 

[tuckerd1]

Check out the following link about DB2 timing.
http://www.oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm
Hope this helps. Jim

Thanks for the link. Good reading.

 

[Agnem]

Actually, my comments didn't take into account an IC, but all things being relative, they would still hold true. It would definetly be true for an NA motor. Case in point, when I bought the Lady Moose I followed her home in the wife's Windstar, and it didn't smoke at all, even on good sized hills. When I got it home, the timing was around 5.5. After getting it to 8.5, she started rolling black smoke they way they should. Smoke on startup is usually cold injectors. They tend to leak and dribble until they warm up, so start up smoke is not an indicator of much. That smoke you see coming from the Moose Truck in my avatar is with 3 pissy injectors in it.

 

[tuckerd1]

Diesel JD,
Exactly why I did the IC install at the same time I did the turbo. I wanted to be able to drive without constantly looking at gauges and the added power I should get from the denser air.

Maybe I should look for a larger turbo.

 

[tuckerd1]

Mel,
Which one,the Moose Pump or the DPS turbo cal pump is providing the most fuel?