IP swap, different hard connections

[colorado_joe]

I've been reading and searching all the forums, although there is WAY too much info on this site.... so I figure I'll just ask. I apologize if this is a common question I've just missed, but better to ask then make a BIG mistake on the truck.

Background:
So I just replaced the injection pump, injectors, return lines on my 1989 F250. The injectors and return line was from Type4 (thanks!) and the pump was a reman from U-haul off ebay people mentioned was a good buy. I bought all this a year ago, just never had the chance to get to replacing till now.
The truck has a C6 transmission.

Problem:
The injection pump I bought has a different set-up/bracket for connecting the throttle cable, return spring, tranny bracket, and vacuum thingy (still trying to fire that out, for now my apologies for calling it a thingy) on the drivers side.
Essentially, it's a different set-up, for maybe a different year. The difference is the internal rod that goes from the drivers side to the passenger's side, and the items attached externally on that rod, both sides.
So I don't currently have a place on the new IP to hook up the long rod with e-clip going back to the tranny. Also the vacuum thingy won't connect as it's different.

My thoughts:
I'm wondering if I should open the injection pump top cover, and remove the mechanical connections (rotating assembly including the rod) from the old IP, and put it on the new IP.
...OR...
Can I get different parts to connect to the new IP without removing the top cover. This would mean a different vacuum thingy, different return spring, and finding some way to connect the tranny rod.

Sidenote:
I am mechanically inclined (engineer) and don't mind removing the top cover. I've built cars before, body up. BUT I do want the guidance of the experts here as this is my first diesel and injection pump.

Thanks in advance. I'll see if I can get some pictures.

 

[Matrix37495]

Can you post pictures of new vs old?

 

[colorado_joe]

I'm not much of a attaching photos, forum person, so here's a go...
I definitely agree that a photo is worth a thousand words. I also know I can't be the first person to come across this scenario.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[colorado_joe]

So I'm doing more research, and answering some of my own questions. The vacuum "thingy" is the vacuum regulator valve.
And then there's the tranny kickdown rod that won't attach properly to the shaft on the lever on the new IP.

But the need to attach or not to attach is the question...

 

[diezelcrazee]

Its not to big of deal to change the shaft. I have the IH Navistar disassembly/assembly pump manual downloaded in the site down there in my signature. Just a couple of settings that you need to measure/mark so you can get them back where they are set at.

 

[colorado_joe]

Thanks diezelcrazee for the IP info. That's a HUGE help!

I'm wondering why there are different throttle shafts between my old and new IPs though.
I keep reading the same part number for a vacuum regulator valve, although you would need two different ones to fit on my different IPs. My old VRV needs a center hole in the IP throttle shaft, whereas the new IP throttle shaft has no center hole on the VRV side.

I realize I can probably do without the kick down shaft, but I'm going to need the VRV.

 

[typ4]

one may be an ih and the other a ford, And on a c6 the rod is ONLY for kickdown, so it will run without it, you would just have to manually pull it down into second. It does not set line pressure like some auto trans. do. That is what the vac modulator does.

 

[icanfixall]

Please do this if... you take the top off the pump. Have a piece of 1/2 inch of thicker plywood or other to cover the intake suction area. The air filter must be off when doing this. The shutoff solenoid can be reinstalled wrong and the engine starts and runs away with no governer slowing it down. The piece of wood chokes out the air to kill the engine. Its do that or kill the fuel. the takes way too long and your running away from an engine about ready to crack in two... Its a screaming loud engine with no governer to stop the rpm raise. Thats soilnoid under the cover stops the flow of fuel into the return line system and chokes off the engine by no retrun. Older big rigs had a manual pull valve to kill the engine. Once a diesel starts they will run as long as they have fuel and air. No electrical needed to support them. We use an electrical solenoid to close off the return flow to kill the engines. Diesels are compression combustion heat started engine. The compressed air in the cylinder is at least 942 degrees to ignite the diesel. Gloew plugs help to get it running but thats all they do. The faster we crank thse engines the more heat is created in the cylinders for ignition of the fuel. So keep the starting system in top shape. Every wonder why a diesel starts so easy when its towed... The pistons are really moving compressing the air which makes heat from the air friction...

 

[BigRigTech]

Please do this if... you take the top off the pump. Have a piece of 1/2 inch of thicker plywood or other to cover the intake suction area. The air filter must be off when doing this. The shutoff solenoid can be reinstalled wrong and the engine starts and runs away with no governer slowing it down. The piece of wood chokes out the air to kill the engine. Its do that or kill the fuel. the takes way too long and your running away from an engine about ready to crack in two... Its a screaming loud engine with no governer to stop the rpm raise. Thats soilnoid under the cover stops the flow of fuel into the return line system and chokes off the engine by no retrun. Older big rigs had a manual pull valve to kill the engine. Once a diesel starts they will run as long as they have fuel and air. No electrical needed to support them. We use an electrical solenoid to close off the return flow to kill the engines. Diesels are compression combustion heat started engine. The compressed air in the cylinder is at least 942 degrees to ignite the diesel. Gloew plugs help to get it running but thats all they do. The faster we crank thse engines the more heat is created in the cylinders for ignition of the fuel. So keep the starting system in top shape. Every wonder why a diesel starts so easy when its towed... The pistons are really moving compressing the air which makes heat from the air friction...

X2 on this suggestion, a block of wood with a handle should be in every diesel mechanics tool box. It can't be beat when you need it.

 

[diezelcrazee]

I agree with the above posters on engine runaway. Many years ago in diesel tech training I had one run away in class. A V6 Detroit on the rampage is a sight to see, but we got her under control thanks to a piece of flat iron. Good idea.

If you will make the little wire hook like it shows in the manual, reinstalling the cover and getting the arm back where it belongs isn't a big deal. At least it hasn't been in my experience, the wire will hold it till you have the cover in place, then just give it a 90 degree twist and pull it out.

 

[icanfixall]

Some time back I think it was Mel that figured out we have been closeing up these pumps with the possibility of a run away. I think he found that if we put power to the solenoid there is no way to install the cover wrong and cause a run away... But please... I'm not completely sure this is the way to do this. Anyone removing the top injection pump cover should plan for a run away and be proactive by having something heavy enough to cut off the sir to the intake opening with the filter housing off the injatke manifold.

 

[tbrumm]

If you do decide to take the cover off the IP, please be sure to have some way of blocking off the air intake when you restart the engine, as the others have said. You can also go to this thread http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...l-shut-off-solenoid-replacement-Stanadyne-DB2 and look at the picture for proper postioning of the arm in the top cover.

 

[colorado_joe]

THANKS Everyone!
I'm horrible about getting on the forums, but wanted to update. And so the next person with the same problem knows it worked for me.

Everything worked out for me. It really wasn't bad to swap the throttle rod between the two IPs, nor was removing and replacing the top cover. Having the help of everyone on this forum is invaluable.
AND the schematics from diezelcrazee were awesome! Nothing beats a good print to look at.

I ended up using my smallest allen wrench (90 deg) to pull back on the black tab inside the pump when I put the cover on. It seemed easier than pushing the shut-off solenoid on the cover itself. And I still put the cover back on by lowering it from the front, towards the back.

When I re-started the truck, I had the block of wood ready to throw on the intake. I even made a nice little cutout in the wood for the nut protruding above the intake screen. Thankfully I didn't need it, but definitely a tool I'll keep around.

So when I re-started the truck it was a very rough idle till I gave it fuel. Also quite a bit of white smoke. I took it about a mile away to a diesel shop where they have the right tools to time it. They also have a dyno and do emissions. So they'll check the smoke to make sure I'm within limits too, while running it on the dyno to make sure it all works out.

Thanks again. I'll try to add my 2 cents when I have enough time to keep up with the millions of posts on this site.

 

[colorado_joe]

Well I thought my swap went fine, but I'm back to having a problem.

The shop tried to time it, and they said it wouldn't work. I know the truck was real hard to start. It would take a couple tires, and need some pushing the fuel pedal to get it turned over. Even with that, it was real rough with what seemed to be no cold advance. The shop said it was something with the pump and they wanted to pull it and take a look. Since I'm broke, I brought the truck home and pulled the IP today.

As it turned out, the spring at the bottom of the governor pin had worked it's way from the bottom of the hole, out of the hole, and wadded itself around the pin on the outside. I think that's a good reason it wasn't running right. So I'm wondering why it did that? I measured both the old and new pins and they were the same size.

Here's a picture of the bad spring next to the old/good one.

You must be registered for see images attach

I also noticed the "gasket" on the old governor pin and the new one are different. It looks like the old/working pump pin had a hard formed rubber gasket for the governor pin to seal against the lock nut. The re-manufactured pin had just an o-ring. Is one right and one wrong?


Here's a picture comparing the old governor pin and new on with the two types of "gasket". You can tell the old vs new by the dirt/oil in the pic:

You must be registered for see images attach

I would like to just put the old pump back together for now and when I save my pennies get a Baby Moose injection pump. Although I'm concerned how the spring at the end of the pin worked itself out, and how do I stop that from happening again?

One more thing... do I have the wrong return line kit? I got it from Typ4 when I bought the BB code injectors. My kit has the red clamps and the shop said it should have green ones for a 7.3. The red clamps should be for a 6.9.

Thanks for any help.

 

[79jasper]

The governor assemblies shouldn't affect timing IIRC. Sometimes the U-Haul trucks had a lower max rpm. That could explain why they look different.
I'm pretty sure all new return line clamps are red. Just installed a set on a 7.3 with red clamps without a problem.
Did that shop specifically say they could time a idi? I see no reason as to why they couldn't, unless they really don't have the right tools.