hey yall gotta 6.9 in my boat

oldmisterbill

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Shoot!

Almost forgot towcat,

those rpm ranges will definitely allow for a turbo, provided he is properly trannied*** and propped.

Now we have to figure out how to get him trannied so he will reach the rpm band width while pulling a near dead load or when fully loaded with shrimp, to engage the turbo. We already know we can produce low end torque with a blower to get him to the turbo range, but we need to also know, where does he need all this torque?? Pulling net or transiting? We need to know what he wants it to do.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can make him a 40 knot boat that he can pull Poseidon's gates off the bottom with.



***Caveat here.... when I mention trannied, I don't mean the social definition, I mean the mechanical definition. ;p

I'm thinking he may be looking for more pulling power at lower speeds. That would make a big diffeence in how his boat is propped. He may want to cruise after hes loaded but a high top end isn't likley if he has a displacement hull. I don't see why depending on what he is looking for that a turbo wouldn't help him. I wouldn't want an IDI running at full boost continuisly -the hea gasket on the floor would probably apply there. A little boost to help him take up a little slack. the right pitch for pulling if he is hauling nets. Maybe then a little cup to help him move a bit faster after he is loaded. I remember when I was trapping bugs(lobster) I seldom looked for top end norewould I run full throtle -to much fuel -wear and tear,a nice cruise around the rpm for the torque curve would be my bet.I only had a pleasure license and a recreational boat set up to haul pots and fish with. A totally different setup,yet simuliar.
Tom you make a lot of sense.
 

CaptTom

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I'm thinking he may be looking for more pulling power at lower speeds. That would make a big diffeence in how his boat is propped. He may want to cruise after hes loaded but a high top end isn't likley if he has a displacement hull. I don't see why depending on what he is looking for that a turbo wouldn't help him. I wouldn't want an IDI running at full boost continuisly -the hea gasket on the floor would probably apply there. A little boost to help him take up a little slack. the right pitch for pulling if he is hauling nets. Maybe then a little cup to help him move a bit faster after he is loaded. I remember when I was trapping bugs(lobster) I seldom looked for top end norewould I run full throtle -to much fuel -wear and tear,a nice cruise around the rpm for the torque curve would be my bet.I only had a pleasure license and a recreational boat set up to haul pots and fish with. A totally different setup,yet simuliar.
Tom you make a lot of sense.

WHOA!

Let's not get carried away with all that sense stuff....I might float away!

A sensible throttle position is always smart with boats unless racing.

His low end pull aka low end torque is what I've been trying to convey in this post. Also, if he were to install a hydraulic motor to his crank, he could put in a puller much you may have had on your ****** boat, most are converted recreation boats, very few can afford new New England made lobstah boats to start off with....$$$$$, worth the money for sure, but still pricey. John Deere also makes a great commercial marine grade engine, very reliable, solid and smooth.
 

plywood

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When I said "cuddle up", I meant with the nice warm exhaust pipe coming through the deck because it's cold, for those whose minds went elsewhere and caused there bungholes to tighten up.:dunno

For the boat, all the factors have to go together. If he ads a turbo, he'll have to reprop, or change his reduction gear.

It dosen't matter so much the rpm he's running, as much as the rpm the engine is designed to operate at, at full throttle.

A boat isn't on tires or tracks, once it's propped correctly, there is no way to load it to the point it needs power at 1000 rpm, unless the full throttle operating rpm is around or neerly above 1000 rpm. If it's propped to operate at say 2700-3400, you can tie it to a the statue of liberty and you will still have virtually no load at 1000 rpm.

If you prop it to have load at 1000 rpm, it will surely burn up past a small amount of throttle.
 

oldmisterbill

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Ok I'm gonna try to put my foot in my mouth. Just for the sake of passing on some basic understanding of a propellar to those that have not had much experience here.

A propeller to me is not just a science but an art also. When referring to the pitch it is referring to how far it would travel through the water if there was no slippage.(like a screw in metal would go so far for each turn). The hull (referring to design weight etc,Displacement hull = pushes thru the water verses planing= rides on the water like a ski) along with the Horse power , torque & rpm effect the propeller configuration. This configuration effects pulling power -speed-engine RPM-fuel consumption-and more. A properly designed prop in a given hull ,should limit a given engines RPM to the maximum recommeded rpm for a given engine. As an example -I had a 350 chevy in a boat the prop was set to keep the engine at maximum throttle to 3200 hundred,the reccomemded rpm for that engine irregardless of other factors. The hull ,angle the prop is to the water how it sets relative to the bottom of the boat and much more effect the requirements of the prop to do its job correctly & effeciently. The main thing effecting this isi the pitch. If the pitch isn't enough the prop will "slip" in the water causing the engine to over speeed.This is one of the main causes of cavatation much like cavitation in the cylinders of our IDi engines.It can literally eat a propellar blade up,casuing holes & pitting of the blade surface-a rough blade surface causes drag. The prop can act like a torque convertor in some ways. It can add more low end pull or more high end speed depending on the pitch. A lower pitch can help a boat take off fast out of the hole ,or a higher pitch can give more top end. But the wrong pitch for the application will always be detrimental to the effeciency of the boat. The leading edges of the blade & the trailing edges also effect the effeciency of the prop ,by how it controls the water entering it and how it directs the water leaving the trailing edge. Thus for example a "cup" (a slight steep curve at the trailing edge to shoot the water rearward as the water leaves the trailing edge) gives a slight over drive effect , allowing more top end with less pitch. So it can get up on plane quicker and still have a decent top end.

For example I had a boat thet got 3 miles per gallon at cruising speed (I use MPG as a measure because Hours per gallon doesn't tell me how far I can get in given conditions).
We made pitch adjustments at the prop shop I used & got inprovements,but not what I wanted.More pitch adjustments ,a cup,some playing with the root of the blade on the hub,a different pitched factory prop was then added & re pitched to the other pitch helped, finally the prop shop made a small adjustment to the face of the blades. The result 5 miles per gallon and 7MPH more top speed with a quicker accleration to get on plane,coming out of the hole.

In the end initally formulas can help get a starting point for the prop but the art I reffered to is done by the artist that bends-welds and makes the minute final changes to the prop.

My intent is to make our site more innteresting & informative in different areas.

Hopefuly I have shed some light on all the discussion you have seen on this topic. I welcome any input or corrections. I am sure atom can add input to this,as he for sure has more experience than I do.


Thanks for your time Mr Bill
 
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DeepRoots

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double D, lemme know where you are at in the Bayou.... If I'm in the area I'll snap some photos for these idi vultures :)

I'm chief on a Tug that cruises the area pretty regular. We used to do ocean tows, now we've been cruising the ICW. We are in Bayou Cassote (Pascagoula). We do regular runs up to Houma, and have done jobs in, Passe Loutre, Tiger Pass, Port ArthurTx, recently.

and yeah, get a turbo, and don't be afraid to spin these old engines, they like it.

Drew
 

OLDBULL8

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I've read and re-read this whole discussion with very little input from the boat owner. What I did notice is in his second post is that when he put the exhaust in the water, is that it turned the water BLACK. I may be wrong, but that tell's me he is over fueling the engine, he even said he turned the IP up 2 more flats after that. To me, he should be turning the engine at 1600 RPM when pulling the net, with the right prop for power and whatever speed it takes for net pulling. If the IP is not timed ( syncronized) with the RPM, he's going to burn fuel like crazy with overfueling, it's almost like lugging the engine, if you get what I mean. He certainly should get the engine tuned as a starting point, then go from there to find out what the correct prop would be to get the speed he desires when netting. With all the variations of load when pulling net's, the throttle has to be adjusted to maintain the 1600 RPM. The reason I say 1600 RPM, is that is the low end of the power band for these engines, and he can always increase the RPM a little and more than likely stay in the power band for efffiency. Like Mr Bill says, you can't get power and speed from the same set up, eat your cake and have it too. Cruise control would be the thing, don't know how you would do that for a boat tho. Just my thought's.
 

CaptTom

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Good points on prop design OMB, most of it is an art, but with slow runners- big heavy monsters when compared to engine size as is this apparent case- ultra-fine tuning of the prop isn't such a big deal.

If Deeproots could get us some photo's with his generous offer, that would be awesome. One thing I might disagree with him and OldBull on though is the rpm operating range and WOT of this boat.... funny... I haven't even seen the boat but can disagree on a mystery system....I know cookoo ...... I am making an assumption based of the vessel size and engine chosen by someone, that the transmission isn't big enough to spool up the rpm to 1600 under load, even with a healthy engine. I think his tranny is too small, closer to a 1:1 ration than a 4:1 ratio. Under load, this too will cause lugging, even with a healthy engine.

One thing OldBull mentioned that is spot on is the 2 flats up on the IP. I've been thinking about this too. I'm assuming it was done on bad advice from some "dock guy" suggesting he could stuff more fuel in to get more power. Imagine what his valves and upper cylinder environment looks like, not to mention the quickly forming tar in his crankcase.

I think the order of priority for this shrimper is:

1) get injection system properly set-tuned
2) Exhaust system proper
3) transmission size determined
4) think about air induction: blower, turbo, both How much pressure can we pump to fuel based on where we need the torque.
5) THEN do prop to fit HP/Trans/hull and desired effect of performance.

His dream sheet is for when he will have to do a rebuild: Moose Cams, maybe different mixing piston style(piston head), bigger transmission IE: 3:1 instead of 1.91:1, etc.

What do you guys think?

Great ideas and commentary btw!
 

DeepRoots

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Capt Tom, you and OMB may have more experience in these little boats. My experience is with tugs. I'm not sure of how you fellas run a fishing boat.

We have 7:1 gear reduction on most tugs because we are swinging a 80inch prop.... it's a whole nother thing.
 

oldmisterbill

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Capt Tom, you and OMB may have more experience in these little boats. My experience is with tugs. I'm not sure of how you fellas run a fishing boat.

We have 7:1 gear reduction on most tugs because we are swinging a 80inch prop.... it's a whole nother thing.

I've always wanted to exoerience what a Tug is like. I can imagine a buldozer in the water. When I was 15 I had a lil inboard with a home converted crosley (out of an early crosley car-maybe 40hp)engine.It had very little top speed -sat deep in the water & would pull like crazy. Definatley it wasn't a ski boat. We named it The Skow,but I had a motor boat!! ;SweetLOL
 

BigRigTech

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Hoooookie dooookie!!!

BTW- dry stacked is the best exhaust system for any boat because there is no contact with water, there-by giving you 100 times the life of the exhaust system. The reason they aren't used on yachts is.... prima donnas don't like noise or raining smoke. Usually only commercial boats are dry stacked.

My grandfather was a fisherman and boat builder, he was old school to the bone....250 chev or 300 Ford gasser's only, straight pipe right off the manifold with no muffler, usually about 3 feet above the house....No wheel - just a rudder stick....Pull to port, push to starboard....He built many boats over the years and they were well respected in our area for being sturdy and tight, I fished with both him and my uncle when I was a teenager for 6 or 7 years in the summers and lobster season. Don't I miss it too, the last boat he built is about 17-18yrs old now and my uncle still has it...Both of them are retired from fishing now but the old boat still looks like new....21ft, glass over wood...The rudder is 6ft short of the stern, 250 chev, you pull on the stick and that little frigger' will spin on a dime...Awesome lobster boat.;Sweet...He built it one summer while we were fishing gill nets offshore so I didn't get to take part in the build but I was aboard for her first trap setting day that fall....Good times that I will never forget.:D
 

plywood

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One thing interesting about the diesels in boats is that hey actually have a correction in the timing curve for load.

Most of the older boats with 2-stroke outboard and 4-stroke inboard/outboards had no adjustment in the timing for load like the vacuum line on an older points distributor. They just had the centrifical advance in the 4-strokes, and in the outboard the advance just happened in relation to throttle position. This is only a problem for planing hulls, which most of these engines were on, because there was a point of high load, just before the boat was on plane.

For a displacement hull boat, the load curve is more linear, so it's less of a problem anyway. Working boats with diesels can go for a very long time when set up properly, cause the load vs rpm vs throttle is always very desirable.

Typically, if he wants to run a turbo and get more out of his midrange load tugging torque, he would need to add some diameter to the prop. Speed boats use a smaller diameter, higher pitch prop, and load hauling, swell climbing boats need a larger diameter prop, with less pitch and sometimes a higher ratio gear reduction.

Well, goodnight, I'm gonna go dream I have a 35 lb nooker gankin my gurdy spring.;Sweet
 

oldmisterbill

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One thing interesting about the diesels in boats is that hey actually have a correction in the timing curve for load.

Most of the older boats with 2-stroke outboard and 4-stroke inboard/outboards had no adjustment in the timing for load like the vacuum line on an older points distributor. They just had the centrifical advance in the 4-strokes, and in the outboard the advance just happened in relation to throttle position. This is only a problem for planing hulls, which most of these engines were on, because there was a point of high load, just before the boat was on plane.

For a displacement hull boat, the load curve is more linear, so it's less of a problem anyway. Working boats with diesels can go for a very long time when set up properly, cause the load vs rpm vs throttle is always very desirable.

Typically, if he wants to run a turbo and get more out of his midrange load tugging torque, he would need to add some diameter to the prop. Speed boats use a smaller diameter, higher pitch prop, and load hauling, swell climbing boats need a larger diameter prop, with less pitch and sometimes a higher ratio gear reduction.

Well, goodnight, I'm gonna go dream I have a 35 lb nooker gankin my gurdy spring.;Sweet

Thanks -We learn somethin new every day. Interesting & makes a lot of sense.
 

CaptTom

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Capt Tom, you and OMB may have more experience in these little boats. My experience is with tugs. I'm not sure of how you fellas run a fishing boat.

We have 7:1 gear reduction on most tugs because we are swinging a 80inch prop.... it's a whole nother thing.

Well they basically operate the same, I own a small un-traditional tug company. Can't really call it a tug, but my largest vessel is 40', my smallest is 24', both rigged for towing and salvage. The principals for both yours, mine and this fishing boat are pretty similar.

It's all about torque! Not HP. We're puller/haulers, not runners.

We must ask, how do we build torque to the wheels of a truck or to the prop of a boat.

Since we're working with zero information on this fellas boat, I've made some assumptions based on 30 + years working at sea aboard Navy ships and boats, commercial fishing boats, rescue boats, salvage craft, pleasure craft from 8' to 300', etc. Now none of that experience tells me what he has, however, based on the limited info given, I can make some assumptions, like I listed early on.

First and foremost is, he has a single 6.9l diesel engine. Well, what could he power with that thing?? I'm guessing something in the range of 28' - 34'.... possibly 36', but even 34' is pushing the limits of any performance of a single 170 HP N/A engine with zero guts. A Ford Lehman Marine diesel at 180 HP only pushes a 34' trawler (recreational vessel) at a good 10-12 knots full throttle on a good day. We're talking about a fella with the additional weight of working gear such as pumps, heavy davits, possibly a net reel, etc. He isn't going anywhere fast!!! He needs torque!

The next assumption I have to make is, it is a displacement or non-planing hull. No one in their right mind would try to plane a boat with a 6.9l IDI without some serious dragster equipment attached to it, no weight aboard... basically planing a piece of plywood.

If my assumptions are correct, then we have a starting point.

As I listed previously, based on shrimpers limited comments and guesstimations, there is an order to fixing his dilemma, starting with his rack. Once the engine is running well, we can figure out what he needs torque-wise and build from there.

Who knows, the engine itself may be unhealthy for various reasons, including very dirty cylinders and oil. I picked up a 77' Magnum with twin 16cyl DDEC's from Acapulco one year. The oil was so sludged up, we couldn't get the boat over 13 knots at full throttle, when she should have been doing 42 knots...this after an oil change. We changed the oil four times before San Diego. With each oil change, we gained enough speed to be able to do 28 knots entering San Diego. Between blowing out the soot on the top end and working out the old junk from the oil pan, we managed to free her up. Being that it was a DDEC, we didn't know we had 5 blown cylinders too. The computer cut out the bad cylinders, so we didn't have any indicators other than power losses. 3 cyl in one engine, 2 cyl in the other, totaled 5. The reader for the DDEC was missing and limited tools prevented our testing.... this was a bit of an emergency rescue mission if you will! :backoff

If shrimpers fuel issues as well as exhaust issues aren't dealt with, the rest is moot. Nothing else done to the engine will do a whit for him.

Plywood had some good prop points too. If you notice Deeproots transmission on his tug with prop combo, they are both huge!!!That is, he has a very large transmission...7:1, coupled to a very large prop, 80"! That's a 6.6' propeller!! Taller than most men.

Well his tug is pulling dead weight, at least at the start. So we ask, how do we pull dead weight??

With big transmissions that don't turn props fast at all, but the engines are spooling like heck to get to the best "torque" rpm. Peak torque is where you want your engine to be running at or there-abouts.

A speed boat with its little props, their transmissions are at or near 1:1. This means for every revolution the engine spins, so does the propeller. On Deeproots tug, his engine spins 7 times before the propeller turns once.

Also, his prop is a power prop. It is a huge 4 or 5 blade prop(possibly 7 blades) designed to give some slip so he doesn't lug or break lines, as well as the ability to push a ton of water with every revolution.

Our shrimpers boat should be similar for his size, maybe only 3 bladed, but built for pulling, not your typical yachtie prop, certainly not a speed blade...remember he's lugging, his words. Another assumption on my part, his prop is too big or his tranny's too small, or both, for what he's doing.


One thing I'd like explained to me, I didn't know is, plywoods great point of interest regarding "the diesels in boats is that they actually have a correction in the timing curve for load".

Could you tell us how this works or its principals??

I woke up to some pretty kewl stuff here this morning... keep it coming.
 

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