What happens when fuel gets contaminated with water?

fields_mj

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Just curious here. Other than clogging up the water seperator, what happens if the fuel happens to get a noticable amount of water in it? I've always wondered this, especially since water injection is supposed to be such a good thing. I know what water injection does, and that it's not the same as having water in the fuel, I'm just curious what the negative effects are if it happens.

Thanks,
Mark
 

CaptTom

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Kills IP, kills injectors, injector tips can explode, rust in everything, bacteria begins to grow-the warmer the faster it grows, e-pump' check valve sticking or spring rusts apart, condensation on fill cap- rusted fill cap to name just a few.

Water injection is vaporized/atomized and never touches injection/fuel system.... no problems. Water "IN" injection system..... big problems.

They're testing a new bio-fuel called EB20, EB80.... etc... It's Emulsified Bio-diesel.... Stay the farque away from it! It's a problem(s) waiting to happen.
 

icanfixall

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Water has a bigger molecular struckure than diesel so it tends to make the pump and injectors work differantly than they were designed to. Any of the electronic injectors on the newer engines sometimes have issues with air entering the fuel system. Then an injector tip blows off from the air and fluid hammering the tip. There are problems with diesel fuel injection and keeping the water out of our mechanical injection will save the system. Like posted above. Water will ruin our systems quickly.
 

MIDNIGHT RIDER

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At our shop, I have a clear glass bottle with about four inches of diesel and about two inches of water to which a few drops of red food-coloring has been added.

This bottle has been a great conversation piece for several years.

I can really shake up the bottle until the red-colored water is thoroughly in suspension amongst the fuel, set the bottle down, and, in seconds, the red-colored water will have already settled itself in a distinctive layer under the fuel.

Left un-disturbed, there is a definite perfect line of separation with no fuel in the water and no water in the fuel.

This fact is hard to demonstrate with un-colored water.


Thus is why all older fuel-tanks had sump basins made into the bottom with a drain-valve; left to sit un-molested for a few minutes, the valve could be opened and the water drained off, with the valve being closed as soon as the water stream turned to fuel.
 

SparkandFire

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I used to work for a company that installed fuel systems for hospital generators. We had a client, a big, big hospital in southern california, they had two huge UST's (underground storage tanks) 40k gallons each. At some point in the late 90's they terminated their contract with their fuel provider and hired a different company to supply them fuel.

What they didn't know was that the small provider they had fired had been doing a service they hadn't mentioned. They had been draining the water separation drums on the tank. These are like the water separator on the 6.9 trucks, no filter inside, just a big drum with some baffles and a drain valve.

The new company had no idea they were there. The hospital maintenance people changed filters regularly. All was well.

At 3:00 AM on a morning in January last year the main 21 KV supply power to the hospital was knocked out by a drunk driver hitting a pole at the back of the hospital. They had six BIG generators, 3 MW I think. They all started up and ran for about 30 minutes until their day tanks were dry. Then the water got in, killed all but two generators. Why did two generators keep running? They were brand new Cat generators with dual automatic water separators. They were dumping so much water out of the fuel the dump bottles were overflowing and water was flooding the enclosure.

After that happened, they had us come out and check everything. The fuel tanks each had about 2,000 gallons of water in them. All of the generators required MAJOR work to get them running again. Luckily the utility powered the hospital back up within about an hour, otherwise people probably would have died...

So, water is very, very bad for fuel. Like earlier mentioned, water separates in fuel, if you draw pure water in, engine dies. simple as that... :eek:
 

CaptTom

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Good analysis of water in fuel.

One thing to be aware of though, water can also become suspended and NOT drop out. This wet fuel is the worst, and is what causes injectors to explode.

The thing about "free water", that is water that settles out v. suspended water is, free water shuts things down quickly and there is less chance of IP/injector damage. Don't get me wrong, it is not a free ride, but the one that causes mechanics and owners to look sideways at me is when I can show them that their fuel is wet.

When suspended water runs through the system, it usually appears as though there's nothing wrong. Engine runs, not necessarily knocking or hollow performance. When metals heat and are exposed to moisture, they rust really fast, this includes in fuel systems. When the right amount of suspended water to fuel is injected into a cylinder, injector tips explode. This is a little different than the damage caused by modern electronic HP injectors with air or cavitation- those don't really explode as much as they're hammered out by the nozzle valves/fuel metering needle. Suspended water creates steam inside the injector tip, also opens up the valve like a leaky injector and detonates.

That's the simplistic version.

Water becomes suspended in several ways, one is agitation- small amounts of free water picked up and not burned returned through return system. Heating the water through the injection system acts like steaming fuel, suspends in such small particulates that it doesn't recombine with itself to recreate free water. Also, high detergent diesels will bind with water..... and anyone crazy enough to add alcohol water absorbers OR ANY ADDITIVE TO DIESEL CLAIMING IT WILL REMOVE WATER!!!!!.... causes water suspension, just to name a few things.

If any system has water, it will also grow bacteria... that black cr@p everyone calls algae. It will start growing almost immediately, and in warmer climates is as bad as a bad case of the clap.... never had it but am a sailor and known many who've had it! Sometimes it is bright orange, but only because the water is rusting the tank and it creates an almost electric orange color from the corrosion.

Drain your water separators even to the point of paranoia if you do any one thing to your diesel engines. It is even "before" an oil change!

A thing regarding additives, most additives are performance enhancers. They clean out the top ends of engines(carbon) with things like kerosene and even paint thinners in some brands, some have lubricity additives and others kills bacteria. A thing about the biocides... bacteria becomes tolerant to it unless completely killed, which is nearly impossible because the bacteria forms a protective coating much like a slug does, that prevents biocides from killing all the bacteria.

The performance enhancers not only clean out the carbon deposits, but they are quasi-cetane boosters giving more horse power. It isn't cetane doing it though, it's a hotter solvent giving the appearance of a cetane like power boost.

Water is BADBADBAD! Keep it out at all costs and we don't usually need additives in diesels. They have their place for sure, but not really necessary, except lubricity and ULSD, which is easily remedied but not absolutely necessary. The reason I say the latter, when a fuel station orders fuel, we do not know if their additives packages are including lubricity enhancers. Your big name higher priced fuels are more than likely adding it, but the discount chains and/or mom/pops may not be. Besides the franchisees paying higher premiums for their right to sell a brand name, they do have the additional costs of additive packages that are written into their must haves as a franchisee.

I hope I wasn't too wordy about this... but water is enemy number one in fuel. We're one of the larger fuel polishing companies in town and get to see the fun stuff... got pictures if you'd like to see them... some fuel tanks look like septic tanks they're so bad. Nasty!!
 

MIDNIGHT RIDER

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This thread has became quite educational and a good read.

Like already stated and then stated again, keep the water out of the injection system.

That being said, I will also say this, I live in probably the most humid, most water-logged, most foggy, state --- Kentucky; I currently have eight diesel engines, counting trucks, tractors, and etc.

In all my years of draining water separators and sediment-bowls, I have yet to find detectable water in any of my collection devices.

I always drain any device into a clean cup and take it inside for a good examination and I have never found water beads, droplets, or the like.

My only theory for this is that, knowing how many under-ground tanks there are floating submerged in these Kentucky craw-daddy holes, and how much water is laying in the bottom of these tanks, (I know very well, as for the first 25-years of my life, we owned a filling-station/truck-stop), the bulk fuel wholesalers saturate the fuel with anti-water dope and every pump has a big water-separating filter right at the hose.

I also have had several injection-pumps completely dis-assembled for re-sealing and they have always been pristinely clean on the insides.

My old 1985 F-350 did, however, have an awful dose of bacteria in the two factory tanks; so, there must have been a water/fuel interface in those two tanks, else no bacteria could have developed; I figure this water came from condensation dripping off the underside of the tank tops.

During this epidemic, I did a ton of research and reading and learned a lot of good and also a lot of mis-information.

Been there and done that wisdom gleaned from old salts kept me from trying any chemical bio-cides; I won't go into all the reasons why; the information is out there if anyone wants to search it..

Instead, I attacked the situation mechanically.

The one thing that erradicated the bacteria for good was a simple "snake-oil" device called a De-Bug magnetic fuel-filter; made in New Zealand.

I almost never got my hands on one in the states and had to buy four to get one; I got the big size.

Since installing the De-Bug, I haven't had a filter blockage, nor have I seen any evidence of "algae" in any of my army of filters; prior to the De-Bug, I kept my eyes glued to the fuel-pressure gauge and always tried to have a landing spot picked out for when a filter plugged and the engine shut down.

Strung out along my fuel-line is first a clear see-thru GoldenRod filter/sediment-bowl --- I can't say enough good about these units --- they have numerous assets and one should be in every fuel system, second is a genuine LUCAS glass-bottom water-separating sediment-bowl, third is the De-Bug magnetic fuel-filter, then two separate in-line filter/strainers protect the internal screens of both the mechanical piston lift-pump and the Carter electric by-pass pump, and last in line just ahead of the injection-pump is a FleetGuard FS1221 large capacity water-separating fuel-filter with integral bottom drain.

EVERY GALLON of fuel religiously gets a measured one-ounce per gallon of TC-W3 two-cycle engine oil; I have been doing thus for years.


Thanks for reading all my nonsense. :)

 

CaptTom

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I like your filter set up, the De-bug.... if you feel it works, NP, but the filters are what's really doing your fuel justice.

One of the things that helps keep water to a minimum i using the equipment. Unless you receive water from an external source, such as an old farm tank under or above ground, most fuel stations should be delivering decent fuel. That said, even fuel stations have dilemma's with bacteria. The tanks are large enough to hide water from the pick ups, in far corners. This is the breeding ground.

It's important to know this because we are all receiving contaminated fuel from good sources. It may not be enough to cause big issues, with limited water or using the equipment, but once it's in there, if given the opportunity, tanks sitting with some moisture in it, bacteria will grow. Now you have three issues, water, acid and particulate.

Not to be self promotional here, we sell and promote chemicals, but there was a concern of using chemicals to treat fuel. First, using chemicals is not such an issue, so long as you're using them for the right reasons. People become disappointed with chemicals because they don't do what they're "perceived" to do, and yes, there is a snake oil element to it if you don't know why/what the chemicals do. Heck, some of these additives are nothing more than good ole paint thinner, but even they can be of benefit in the top end and for performance, BUT, adding too much can do harm by raising EGT's, valve burn etc.. Again, knowing what the chemicals are in the bottle and what they do is key. Those who buy and add for the purpose of just adding a fuel additive are just wasting their money.

Around here, on this board, there is one popular product, and many are using it religiously for its lubricity properties. That's a good thing! So long as it's understood that's what they're using it for.

There's another one.... even I used incorrectly many moons ago, gave a heckuvalota performance, but does not a whit of good against bacterial infection, have testing to prove it. One of those solvent based additives that do great things for the top end and for performance, but adding too much can decrease your scheduled rebuild times because it makes the engine burn hotter.

We used to use straight JP-5 aka jet fuel in our Detroits. BasicallyJP-5 is a very pure kerosene... WICKED AWESOME for power creation!!! BUT! When used, instead of ever 1000 hours of scheduled rebuild, it drops by 50% when using kerosene. Engine wear is deadly to longevity with "hot" solvents.

We use two different additives for two different reasons. The first is our primary additive because it does three things: 1) makes a bad living environment for bacteria, even if water is present, but is not a biocide, 2) prevents MIC corrosion (Microbial Induced Corrosion) by filming the interior tank walls, there-by preventing acidic damage caused by bacterial poop. 3) Adds lubricity. This particular product also eliminates bacterial sludge over time, but isn't an over night cure, although customers are pretty darned happy in shorter order than I usually promise. For sitting vehicles, this product is next to miraculous.

The second additive is used for engines that are all coked up! It's amazing what a little "hot" can do to clean things up. After a few hours of operation, a lot of smoke clears and power comes back. It allows for the mechanic to more accurately determine what's wrong with the engine systems when you start with a clean fuel/air point.

We don't use the latter so much, because once you're burning good clean fuel, a lot of the smoking and loss of performance issues go away. If they don't, then add the hot stuff, if it still doesn't, then call the mechanics!

I hope this helps a little bit anyway. I know it's hard to pry people from their beliefs regarding additives, whether pro or con. Filtration is always #1, BUT, when you know there's an issue, chemically treating is #2 and a very viable solution.... just gotta know what the chemicals are for or it's just a waste of money and time.
 

SparkandFire

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We were a distibutor for these guys...

http://www.algae-x.net/products/fuel-polishing-systems/

they have a high powered magnetic polisher that, according to the engineer who gave us training on the system, "breaks up the chemical bonds that the algae form that allow them to colonize and form large groups, which clog up fuel components"

Seems alot like the De-bug setup mentioned earlier...
 

G. Mann

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What has not been mentioned in this thread is why water in a diesel is like Kryptonite to Superman.

Water is NOT compressible.... Under pressure it will bend steel. The Injection pumps job is to put diesel fuel under pressure, the injectors job is to pop open when that pressure reaches the "pop pressure". Since water will not compress, unlike say, air, when a slug of water passes through the IP it does damage by failing to compress like sending a sledge hammer through the IP. Same for the Injectors, which is why water will explode them.

If there is enough water pumped through the fuel system to load the cylinder space at the top of the compression stroke, it will bend the rods and crack the pistons. The fancy name for that is "Hydrolock".

Recently, I tore down a 4x4 gas engine that some hotshot decided to take swimming, sucked a load of water in the intake and "hydrolocked" all 8 cylinders... Crank broke, main journals cracked, all rods bent, pistons cracked, heads both destroyed, even pulled the head studs out of the block.... it all goes to the scrap yard.. We give him his Darwin Award tomorrow..

Most "water in fuel" events on our trucks don't reach that kind of damage, however it demonstrates just how destructive water is when you try to compress it.

Hope this helps.
 

CaptTom

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Magnets has some pretty good claims, I have one of the biggest ones made.... guess what.... it sits with a bunch of scrap metal attached to it! LOL

I have chemicals way better than any magnet can perform.

Two things most important about diesel fuel, #1-Keep the water out! #2- good stepped filtration...big micron to small micron. Beta is important too, but even with poor filter quality, if there's several in line, they will trap most stuff. Use good brand names and things should be fine. If you can install those water absorbing or water condensing elements, even better. I really like those 6.0 filters with the water blocker fabric. Not as good as a coalescer, but great for catching smaller droplets, not yet emulsified before going to a primary filter.

If you can fit a Racor 500 or a 225 in line "first", then you get not only good coalescing, but now they too use the water blocker fabrics in their standard elements for the little wet stuff that can get by coalescing. The 500's are my favorite for any truck size, mostly because element change and water capacity are so good, but fitment is a little harder than the 225's.

When we polish fuel on smaller capacity tanks, we can't use our big filters, which can filter to half a micron, but use twin Racor 1000's with water blocker and treat with our chemicals. Heck, my big system is primed with 20 gallons of fuel, and is why we use a Racor set up on small stuff....and a few other things that's a big hairy secret! LOL

Simplest way to keep systems healthy.
 

CaptTom

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What has not been mentioned in this thread is why water in a diesel is like Kryptonite to Superman.

Water is NOT compressible.... Under pressure it will bend steel. The Injection pumps job is to put diesel fuel under pressure, the injectors job is to pop open when that pressure reaches the "pop pressure". Since water will not compress, unlike say, air, when a slug of water passes through the IP it does damage by failing to compress like sending a sledge hammer through the IP. Same for the Injectors, which is why water will explode them.

If there is enough water pumped through the fuel system to load the cylinder space at the top of the compression stroke, it will bend the rods and crack the pistons. The fancy name for that is "Hydrolock".

Recently, I tore down a 4x4 gas engine that some hotshot decided to take swimming, sucked a load of water in the intake and "hydrolocked" all 8 cylinders... Crank broke, main journals cracked, all rods bent, pistons cracked, heads both destroyed, even pulled the head studs out of the block.... it all goes to the scrap yard.. We give him his Darwin Award tomorrow..

Most "water in fuel" events on our trucks don't reach that kind of damage, however it demonstrates just how destructive water is when you try to compress it.

Hope this helps.

Most of this is very true, but diesel doesn't compress either. What kills the IP is lack of lubricity and water delivered to an injector sans fuel will not frag the tips. As mentioned earlier, straight water going to a fuel system will "usually" kill the engine before major damage is done.... except with the IP.

What frags tips is the small quantity of water combined with fuel that makes em explode.

We can hydrolock our engines with fuel too... end result is exactly what you described.
 

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