Typical place for P/S pump to leak?

[Cubey]

I'm pretty sure my RV's original P/S pump is leaking from the pump's seals itself, not the pressure hose/o-ring, which I replaced last year. I mean I could be wrong, I'm not really sure. Is that the typical seal to fail on the Saginaw pumps?

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...red/7312187/6644542/1985/ford/e-350-econoline

It's so hard to tell where it's coming from. It looks like it might be coming from the pulley shaft side though, since it looks damp on the lower side the P/S pump, below the driveshaft.

Then again, the steering gearbox has fluid dripping from it too by the pitman arm, but not up top where the hose connections are so I don't think it's the hose connections. Maybe the gearbox is leaking and the fan is blowing it back to the bottom edge of the pump? seems like the front of the pulley would be damp in that case though.

The leak has gotten much worse lately, to the point that I have to refill it after 100 miles or less, because the pump starts getting noisy when tuning the steering wheel at a stop from lack of fluid. (It could be when driving but impossible to hear)

 

[Cubey]

Man, this picture was hard to get into frame, in focus, and well lit:

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It looks like it's actually leaking from the giant o-ring it has that seals the pump itself into the reservoir. I drove it to the dump station and back (1.5mi round trip) earlier and even after it sat for 15+ mins, I can see it slowly dripping from the pump itself near that seal.

The area just below the pump's driveshaft isn't damp (so the shaft seal isn't leaking) nor is the pulley at all (so it's not blowing onto it from the fan). The gearbox is slightly under the pump, so I guess it's just dripping down onto it.

The pressure hose connection on the pump looks dry too. There isn't fluid on the lowest part of the hose so I don't think that's the leaking point. So yeah, I guess I need a new P/S pump.

They sell the pump by itself but why on earth would anyone do that when the complete thing is only $10 more and you don't have to mess with installing it? It shows the big o-ring I am referring to though:

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Now I wish I had replaced the pump when I had the hoses off. The pressure hose with the O-ring is a witch to get installed on these pumps, on a van. Whoever designed an o-ring there instead of a flared connection was an idiot.

Well, I guess I'll be budgeting for a new P/S pump w/ reservoir this year. I'll get one from O'Reilly I guess, since they aren't any cheaper online, and they have a lifetime warranty. At least it's something I can put off for the time being, since it hasn't failed yet, just leaks badly.

 

[Cubey]

Sorry for repeatedly bumping this thread, I figure it's better than editing.

Can this be used for our power steering? You get twice as much of it for the price of a gallon of Walmart Supertech Trans fluid. With such a bad leak, I want to spend as little as possible on fluid until I can see about replacing the pump. THe description mentions that it can used in "power steering units". Of course that's referring to tractors, not on-road vehicles.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...0a-plus-utility-tractor-fluid-2-gal-vp2040109

 

[chillman88]

Sorry for repeatedly bumping this thread, I figure it's better than editing.

Can this be used for our power steering? You get twice as much of it for the price of a gallon of Walmart Supertech Trans fluid. With such a bad leak, I want to spend as little as possible on fluid until I can see about replacing the pump. THe description mentions that it can used in "power steering units". Of course that's referring to tractors, not on-road vehicles.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...0a-plus-utility-tractor-fluid-2-gal-vp2040109

I'll work, it's a little bit thicker if I remember correctly. You'd be surprised what will work in a pinch. I've run 15w40 when mine was leaking bad.

Since you're planning on changing the pump anyway, run it and flush it out when you get the new pump in. Although to be honest, I'd probably just keep running it myself.

 

[Cubey]

I'll work, it's a little bit thicker if I remember correctly. You'd be surprised what will work in a pinch. I've run 15w40 when mine was leaking bad.

Since you're planning on changing the pump anyway, run it and flush it out when you get the new pump in. Although to be honest, I'd probably just keep running it myself.

I'm not sure if it's thicker or thinner. Here's a spec sheet on Type F ATF, which is probably what they put in the P/S way back when. If not Dex/Merc like the C6 has. I have used both types, depending on price/what's available.

https://www.sinclairoil.com/sites/default/files/SL PREMIUM ATF TYPE F.pdf

 

[chillman88]

I'm not sure if it's thicker or thinner. Here's a spec sheet on Type F ATF, which is probably what they put in the P/S way back when. If not Dex/Merc like the C6 has. I have used both types, depending on price/what's available.

https://www.sinclairoil.com/sites/default/files/SL PREMIUM ATF TYPE F.pdf

Well when I was doing my research on hyguard they make a regular viscosity and a low viscosity. The low viscosity is very similar to Dex/Merc. I just don't remember if that's what J20A was or not, been a while since I looked into it.

 

[Cubey]

I found the Sinclair PDF for tractor fluid. Here are the two charts next to each other.

If we go by the first line of both charts alone, yeah it's very similar. Type F is slightly thicker for the gravity API, but not for the others?

I guess it's basically "close enough" for these old power steering systems?

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[Scotty4]

I used lucas oil stop leak in mine and the noise went away. The level has also maintained now.

 

[Cubey]

I used lucas oil stop leak in mine and the noise went away. The level has also maintained now.

Well... back when I thought I had a leaking pressure hose o-ring (which I might have had also) I tried the Lucas power steering stop leak (super thick stuff like the oil version) and it didn't stop the leak. Yeah they say "or your money back" but I didn't bother trying to get my money back on that.

The leak wasn't as bad as it is now though, so maybe it would work? I suspect this is a new/different leak, or maybe I'm wrong and this has been the same leak and it's just getting much worse. There's no telling.

There is no noise if I have the level correct in the reservoir. It's just leaking out and when it gets very low, then it gets a little noisy from lack of pressure/lubrication. I try to remember to check/refill it though pretty often now.

I guess I'll get the new pump in the next month or so and replace it while I am here, where I can park as much as I want without moving.

It looks like one of the PS pump mounting bolts is broken in the pic I posted, so I'll have to pick up a new flange bolt at the Ace Hardware next to O'Reilly before I do it. I might just get all new bolts, in case more decide to break. Maybe that's why it's leaking, maybe the pump is rattling a lot in the bracket.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I kind of lean toward the fact that it's 35 or so years old making it leak. That o-ring has probably gotten brittle.

 

[Cubey]

I kind of lean toward the fact that it's 35 or so years old making it leak. That o-ring has probably gotten brittle.

That too. Even if it was replaced at some point, it could be 20+ years old.

I wonder if I broke the PS pump mounting bolt by messing with it back when I was doing the V-belts after the alternator one broke. I don't remember any bolts breaking but I may have just forgotten/ignored it.

 

[Cubey]

They actually sell just the seal kit for these pumps for $10:
https://www.amazon.com/Gates-351160-Power-Steering-Pump/dp/B000C2SDUA

Also the seals and some other extra parts (not sure what) for $15. Not sure I need that bushing piece since I'm not doing a complete pump rebuild:
https://www.amazon.com/Gates-350390-Power-Steering-Rebuild/dp/B000C2UEVQ

It's actually pretty simple to remove the pump from the reservoir, it seems. I found this good video about rebuilding Saginaw pumps:

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I wouldn't dig as deep into the pump as he does, I'd just replace that big O-ring around the pump itself where it mates with the reservoir.

Rebuilt pumps seem to be of questionable quality (as with anything rebuilt this days), so I'm weary of turning this one in for a core since it has so few miles on it. (under 100k) Any inner inner seals are probably ok since they have sat in an ATF bath basically. The outer one is the one that that gets exposed to the elements somewhat. Pumping isn't the problem, leaking is. The shaft seal is probably the other one that might fail.

My only other concern for the old pump is that broken mounting bolt. Maybe I can put some penetrating oil on it and grip the bolt threads sticking out with vise grips to get it out that way. And hope more don't break.

I don't want to have a shop touch it, given the track record of random shops I have had to deal with. Only one has ever been really good, and that was in Colorado when the F250's driveshaft carrier bearing bit the dust in 2017.

So... I just ordered that $11.32 (w/ tax) seal kit (O'Reilly says special order/sold out). The next time I go to town, I will also buy a complete rebuilt pump w/ reservoir from O'Reilly. And another 1qt of ATF (from Walmart) for refilling after.

Rebuilt pumps all tell you to install a P/S filter. I guess the quality of rebuilds is so bad that they want you to filter the metal shavings they leave in them. About $20 for one of these.. https://www.amazon.com/MFP-Magnetic-Inline-Transmission-Steering/dp/B08LG8T845

If I find that the old pump is beyond repair for some reason (broken/seized mounting bolts, mainly), the unopened seal kit can go back to Crapazon, the O'Reilly pump will get installed, and I'll get the $8.88 core refunded when I turn in this old pump.

 

[Cubey]

I poked around on Crapazon and found this "used - very good" pump without the reservoir for under $28. Thing is about Crapazon, stuff that is still new, just previously sold, shipped, and then returned gets marked that way. I bought a 12v compressor fridge and a pure sine wave inverter that were marked as "used" but weren't.

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If it comes and is actually used/dirty... I'll send it back since it's free returns.

I'll still go pick up a complete one with the reservoir from O'Reilly to be sure I don't get stuck without a pump.... but basically I'm trying to ultimately do this for as cheap as possible right now.

Hoping I can fix my existing pump with new seals... but if I can't get the broken mounting bolt out... then I may try to use the $27.44 pump with my existing reservoir.... and failing that too..... I'll have the complete O'Reilly one. Any unused stuff can be returned at no cost to me.

So, at lowest it'll cost ~$11 (seals only) and at most ~$70 (complete pump+reservoir).

The seal kit and bare pump can go back if I end up not using them. If the $27.44 pump itself is bad (as they can be...) then I can swap it out for the O'Reilly one and send it back to Crapazon for a refund as defective. It'll mean installing a pump twice but eh, I have the time to do it.

 

[Cubey]

Huh, very strange. The O'Reilly P/S pump I linked the other day is still there, but when you look up pumps now, a slightly higher priced pump comes up with a slightly higher core.

The original one they were showing me: ($62.99+$8.88 core)
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...red/7312187/6644542/1985/ford/e-350-econoline

The one that come up now in search: ($67.99+$10.00 core)
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...12187/4510607/1985/ford/e-350-econoline?pos=0

Both have the same exact part number (731-2187) and both say for diesel (gas ones are slightly different) but the UPCs listed are different, for some reason. The old one is in a different line ("MP3") from the new one ("MPP"). Both say limited lifetime warranty, so that's not the difference. I guess the cheaper one is just an older stock?

In any case, I went ahead and ordered the lower priced one online with free shipping, so I don't have to mess with going to town on the day it's there for pickup. And if I don't use it, I can return it in-store on a day I'm there of my own choosing. And I'll have in-store access for warranty claims, which is the reason why I wanted to get one from brick & mortar chain vs rockauto or crapazon. Yeah, I bought that bare pump on crapazon, but it was half the cost of retail. I might just send it back, but we'll see. I just want my options open for when I get the old pump removed, then I can decide what to do depending on what I see in front of me.

EDIT: oh, I also ordered one of these for good measure since new pumps tell you to use them. Crapazon is charging twice as much for the same exact filter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/iFJF-3-8-I...-Replacement-MAGNEFINE-Brand-New/383564646176

 

[Cubey]

I kind of lean toward the fact that it's 35 or so years old making it leak. That o-ring has probably gotten brittle.

Yeah, it's definitely that huge O-ring seal. It has been sitting for maybe a week? (I am losing track of the days..) and the reservoir seemed to be totally empty today. I filled it up before going the .7 mile to the dump station and after I got it to the correct level on the dipstick, it was visibly dripping from the pump/reservoir.

I stuck a cheap open drain pan down with a big rock in a plastic bag (so the pan doesn't blow away in these high winds!) so it can avoid dripping even more fluid into the dirt out here. It's already done it a lot but oh well, this will at least help for the next week or so.

I have the new seals and the bare pump on hand now, so I'm just waiting on the complete pump+reservoir. It'll have it in my hands on Tuesday, but I need to wait for a day when it's not 20mph winds (so next weekend). Thankfully I have enough Dex/Merc on hand so I can get to town on Tuesday since I need groceries, and I can get some more Dex/Merc. If I I have to stop half way and check/refill the fluid both ways to/from town, so be it. There are safe places I can pull off and do that. That way I don't risk burning up the old pump, since I'm hoping I can just do the outer reservoir seals. (about 4 seals)

Might just keep the old pump anyway as a spare and eat the $8 core, if I end up using the O'Reilly complete pump anyway. It never hurts to have a complete spare pump.

It doesn't look like it's going to be fun to change. It definitely has to come out from the top, and it looks like the AC compressor is gonna have to be detensioned and tilted to help make room to get it out, between the AC compressor and the master cylinder. I hope I can leave the PS pulley on, since I don't think there's enough room to get the puller/installer in there otherwise due to how close it is to the fan shroud and radiator. The mounting bracket does have a cutout on the bottom, so maybe it can be maneuvered in and out.

The Chilton E-series manual talking about 75-88 says basically to unbolt it and take it out. Not super helpful. It does have a diagram for diesels though, at least.