Turn the Key - No Crank, No Start Issue: Lights on dash & Headlights come on

[damedic]

Greetings,

My '94 IDI Turbo will not crank over. E40D Tranny
Replaced 20 A Circuit Breaker in the fuse box under the dash, Still no Crank (someone told me to try that), I think it regulated some circuits including the ignition switch.
Hear the clicking, WTS glows, then goes out like normal, turn the key = Nothing.

Help! I am a newbie, and would like to start to know more about this truck and learn some things, like fix this problem.
Can I get a helper to assist me in diagnosing the problem, I know how to use a multimeter, I have a basic understanding of some things. With a step by step, and hey - pic's are great tool for my learning curve. I would truly appreciate the help

From what I was able to find, the problems can vary: Bad Circ Brkr for Ignition Sw. Circuit, Bad starter or solenoid, bad voltage regulator, Bad ignition switch, Bad???

My problem is: I don't know how to test for these things.

I attached a picture of the Voltage Regulator? I seen someone use this as a testing starting point?
It appears that it is a 4 post? 2 main lugs on each side and 2 minor lugs top & bottom. Bottom one is empty.
I think I can tell that the smaller Red wire on the Left is going to starter/solenoid?
The larger Red wire/cable on the Right, is off of the Positive side of nearest battery.
Don't know if this is factory/common, but the 2 light grey wires (left of the lg.red cable) are spliced onto a larger cable going to the alternator. Why not just extend the same size wire from the alternator, all the way to the lug of the regulator? Unless this was a previous owners repair/splice?
The other wires I have no clue where they may be going or their function? (if someone knows, I guess that would be good info to know?)

Thanks in advance

medic

 

[madpogue]

That's the starter relay. The voltage regulator is built into the alternator. And yes, that wiring setup is common, and exactly as it shows in the EVTM. That terminal on the relay, where the battery wire comes from, acts as a junction point for all other electrical components on the truck. That's what those other ring terminals are for.

If you have an assistant, have them turn the key to START, and listen for that relay to click. If it does, then you know the ignition switch, neutral switch, associated wiring and fuses are all good. If it doesn't, FIRST thing to try after that is to try starting it in Neutral. There's more to test, but start (no pun intended) with that.

 

[cpdenton]

I would throw in this. Get that multimeter out also. If the solenoid clicks when the key is turned to "start" that is a good sign, but take that multimeter and check for 12 volts on the wire that goes down to the starter. It's on the left in your picture. See what you have there and report back.

 

[cpdenton]

Also, the wires that are two wires that go into 1... Those are fusible links designed to burn out if there is a short circuit. Those are factory and look good!

 

[madpogue]

^^^^ +1; just because the relay is clicking, doesn't mean it's making good contact. It just means everything "upstream" of it is good.

 

[IDIoit]

i would start by cleaning battery connectors and posts.
it can cause lights and stuff to work, but no crank.
this happened on my buddys tuck, tuned out to be a battery post that was broken internally.

after that, i would jump the starter solenoid, if it cranks over, you have an ignition issue in or on the column, which is common. or a solenoid problem,
then listen for it to click when someone turns the key.

if it doesnt, then you have to look at the starter. pull out, bench test.
if its good, you have a battery cable issue, if its not, you found the problem.

chase the problem not your tail

pictured is starter solenoid, nothing more than a switch.
1 side is hot, one side is not.
if you apply 12V + to the small one, the big 2 come together
then the not side becomes hot

 

[damedic]

Oh Wow, Thanks Guys!!!

Was way too late home from work yesterday to even check the computer.
Checking this morning and got your replies. Truly appreciate it!

Unfortunately, all my assistants left for the day already
Will perform the suggested tasks... and thanks for the answers to some of my questions. The two wires into one, make sense: A "Fusible Link" Good Idea!
Glad mine looks good.
I guess I can check my connections, clean all the terminals at battery, starter & alternator, etc. Until my help is available to continue with other tasks to test.
Correction taken: Starter Relay not voltage regulator. Regulator is part of alternator. (IDIoit mentioned that what I pictured is the Starter Solenoid I thought that was at the Starter?

Thanks all - Have a very pleasant afternoon

 

[IDIoit]

my apologies, its the relay.
starter solenoid is on the starter itself..
they basically do the same thing. low voltage power powering a high amperage switch.
but the one on the starter solenoid engages the plunger also.

ever worked on a pre 63 ford, where the starter only has a hot lead?
then a relay on the firewall.

 

[Agnem]

Have somebody hold your key in the crank position, and whack that fender solenoid with a wooden mallet.

 

[damedic]

Hello all

Here is what happened this morning, finally was able to have a family member home when I was....
With helper turning key:

• at 1st click/stop - lights on dash illuminated - WTS On

Rapid clicking at the GP Relay ?
then it stopped. I think WTS went out at same time?​

• At Start position - no start/crank, Starter Relay did click or I felt it click, sound was faint cuz I think the GP Relay was still clicking? Don't know if that what it is, but I attached a picture, so you guys can tell me?

I then got my meter & and did the "Start" test again, I heard the click at the Starter Relay on the inside fender wall and lots of clicking going on and saw on the meter, a very rapid fluctuating DC Volt reading of what I was able to see: No more than 3 volts.

My son then came out of the cab, and tried twisting the the positive cables onto the battery post terminals tighter. (Note* - I quickly cleaned them with a post cleaner the other night) and we tried again... "wait for it...

I thought I saw a little bit of smoke at the positive terminal of the battery nearest the Starter Relay. And there was cranking!!!!
And the DC Volts was at 13 at the left side of the relay, or so, when cranking, it took a few try's but the truck started and is running at idle right now and charging. It has not been started in about a month or so.

I did see this???: 2nd picture posted: It appears that both battery cables at positive side, appear to burned? I see a major color discoloration. And some white stuff inside the battery terminal clamp. Where the cable is red further back on the cable, at the terminal itself, it is a beige color. Any advice as to what I should do? Should I replace the terminals? and if so, how & with what? Where can I find something?
Or ... should I replace the whole cable assembly?

Thanks all - You rock

 

[cpdenton]

I replaced my battery cable with one from oreilly auto parts.

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...t-(oreilly-s)-battery-cable-review&highlight=

I have been very pleased.

 

[BDCarrillo]

Also make sure you clean out the inside of the cable connector... shoulda been on the other end of your terminal cleaner brush thingy.

That puff of smoke was the corrosion between the post/cable burning off. The slight twist by your assistant was enough to break some of that gunk loose.

On the other hand... each battery SHOULD have a straight shot to the starter, unless there is a break in one of the cables. Then again, one healthy battery should be able to start the truck.

If I were you...
-New starter relay (They are cheap, and if your cab lights and amp gauge show decent, I'd HIGHLY suspect the starter relay)
-Clean the daylights out of the cable ends and battery posts, both positive and negative

That shoulda solved it... if not:
-Watch the voltage at each battery with them isolated (pos disconnected from the other one) during a crank cycle
-If one dips below ~10 volts I'd charge it and check again. Replace them *BOTH* if no improvement (if voltage is good but one doesn't crank right, check cables, below)
-If you hear sizzling while charging, it's probably toast

Check cables:
-Check resistance at each end, and flex the cable around to see if it spikes. Also check for green gunk under the insulation at terminal clamp. Spike or green stuff, replace cable
-Verify that the grounds are good... each battery grounds to a different spot. Remove them, clean/sand/degrease and replace grounds. Try isolation/crank testing again

That's not a perfect set of troubleshooting steps but it's what I would do.

BTW, your starter relay has been removed and then the same one was reinstalled before... you can see the witness marks from it in your first post.

ever worked on a pre 63 ford, where the starter only has a hot lead?
then a relay on the firewall.

Pre-91 or so Ford cars had the one wire as well... Converted my Mustang from that style.

Incidentally, the starter relay uses an electromagnetic solenoid... just like the solenoid on the starter which is a relay that sends full voltage to the starter AND moves the bendix, extending the gear to mesh with the flywheel. Both terms are technically correct for either part.

Sooo... on my 89 mustang, the part on the fender was commonly called the solenoid, but a couple years later it was the same part #, just wired differently, and was just called a relay. Thanks Ford, for giving us TWO relays that control the starter and mixing up terms.

Bottom line, "relay" or "solenoid" work to convey the message.

 

[damedic]

A special thanks to all of you!

You have been an immense help. This evening, I got the Oreilly's positive cable that was suggested. A local branch had one in stock.
I will do a complete & thorough cleaning of all posts, terminals, and ground connections - using abrasives, wire brush, liquid cleaners, etc.
Will also carefully remove at start & clean there.

Also at the Starter Relay, I will do the same with cleaning there.
But... If I wanted to go ahead & replace that... With what & where do get the relay?
Anybody still have a good part # for a replacement? I Would appreciate it.

Also, what about the relay at located on the valve cover - I think its the Glow Plug Relay? That was rapidly clicking & loudly?? Should I replace that as well? If so, what is a good replacement & where can I find one?

Thanks to all!

 

[BDCarrillo]

The glow plug relay will typically "short cycle" and click kinda crazy if some of your glowplugs are shot. Motorcraft/Beru ZD9s (found online) are very highly recommended.

The fender mounted starter relay should be available at any auto parts store.

 

[damedic]

Thanks to all of you who helped.
I take it that "Starter Relay" is really not a major difficult part to obtain, so if I ask for a MotorCraft Starter Relay for my truck, all should be good?
I will look into replacing the GP's, I think they were replaced right when I got it a couple years ago. But I didn't do it, so I have no idea what was put in. So to make sure, MotorCraft/Beru ZD9's, are going in.

Now that the New Positive Cable had been replaced and all connections cleaned... Cranks and Starts, no problem.
I would say this problem has been solved, by the crack team of Oilburners - IDI Division. Thanks