Rebuilding ZF5, looking for preload shims

[TheBirdman]

Hey guys, been a while.
Say, Im rebuilding a ZF5 S47 I bought a while ago with the intention of swapping my T19 for it in a bit here. All went well, until I pulled the bearing races out to find that the last french fried fart sniffer to rebuild this gearbox had used cut up busch light cans to shim the countershaft.

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Sure enough, I put the races in without the shims and measured the slack, and the countershaft needs an extra 4-5 thou to get within spec, and the main shaft could use 1-3 thou as well. And after looking for shims online for a while, I found out why they used beer cans- nobody sells shims for these anymore. I was able to track down some part numbers, OEM and aftermarket, but nobody has them in stock anymore, and I cant find any on ebay either.
countershaft shim 0730 004 836(1.95mm/76.7t) OR 0730 004 835(1.9mm/74.8t) - discontinued
mainshaft shim 0730 106 688(1.4mm/55t) OR 0730 106 689(1.45mm/57t) - discontinued
OEM shim kit 1307SMK - discontinued
torque king QU20984 - out of stock

I looked around mcmaster-carr for a while and wasnt able to find much there in comparable sizes.
Does anyone know where I can find some shims for these, or possibly shims for some other application (differentials perhaps) that are known to fit? Or better yet, does anyone have some leftovers they would sell me?

 

[Noiseydiesel]

Your search is too focused. Contact your local transmission parts supplier warehouse and se what they have to say.

All Transmission Parts, 1814 NE Argyle St, Portland, OR 97211, US - MapQuest

Get more information for All Transmission Parts in Portland, OR. See reviews, map, get the address, and find directions.

www.mapquest.com

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

I just went through this with my ZF rebuild, and found the same thing. I did find this one reference from 2020:
Info on FTE, post #5

I asked around here and the consensus was to send it with my original shims since my bearings were in good shape, it might work out. Checked pre-load and it worked!

If you want the shim sizes handy, here's my post about it.

 

[Black dawg]

How was the preload with the beer can shims?

 

[TheBirdman]

I just went through this with my ZF rebuild, and found the same thing. I did find this one reference from 2020:
Info on FTE, post #5

I asked around here and the consensus was to send it with my original shims since my bearings were in good shape, it might work out. Checked pre-load and it worked!

If you want the shim sizes handy, here's my post about it.

I read through your thread, very handy. One question though, on post #54, you said:
"checked clearance again and it was about 0.001". Minimum is 0.00079""
Do you mean to say the shaft had 0.001" of play back and forth? or preload?
Becasue the spec is 0.00079-0.00434 of *preload*, not play. The shafts need to be tight in the case becasue the steel shafts and aluminum case heat up and expand differently. If I put my shims back in as I found them(not that I would put beer can shims back in my big expensive transmission), I would have about 0.0005-0.001" preload on the main, and pretty close to 0 preload on the countershaft, and I was hoping to get both up to around 0.003", to get them on the tighter side.

 

[TheBirdman]

How was the preload with the beer can shims?

I didnt measure it before I took it apart. I didnt see much point, as the main shaft was siezed with a welded up input bearing. I did come across this transmission cheap.

 

[Old Goat]

Looks like he used Bud Lite cans.

Goat

 

[franklin2]

I read through your thread, very handy. One question though, on post #54, you said:
"checked clearance again and it was about 0.001". Minimum is 0.00079""
Do you mean to say the shaft had 0.001" of play back and forth? or preload?
Becasue the spec is 0.00079-0.00434 of *preload*, not play. The shafts need to be tight in the case becasue the steel shafts and aluminum case heat up and expand differently. If I put my shims back in as I found them(not that I would put beer can shims back in my big expensive transmission), I would have about 0.0005-0.001" preload on the main, and pretty close to 0 preload on the countershaft, and I was hoping to get both up to around 0.003", to get them on the tighter side.

How do you measure preload with a measurement? Do you shim it till you have zero play and then add a .00079 shim? I do not believe there would be such a thing. Preload is always measured by a drag number or in/lb number. I think the .00079 is a actual play or clearance number. I think the Germans are basically saying "no play" if those are the actual numbers.

 

[TheBirdman]

Looks like he used Bud Lite cans.

Goat

hm, my first thought was that it was the pre-2013 busch light design, but now that I look at it, it very well could be a 2004 bud light can. I suppose thats one way of dating a rebuild. Either way, it doesnt inspire confidence in the quality of work the guy did. If it were something like an old mill can or bud heavy I might understand. Hell, if it were a coors banquet shim Id have left it right there, that ol boy knows what hes doing.

 

[TheBirdman]

How do you measure preload with a measurement? Do you shim it till you have zero play and then add a .00079 shim? I do not believe there would be such a thing. Preload is always measured by a drag number or in/lb number. I think the .00079 is a actual play or clearance number. I think the Germans are basically saying "no play" if those are the actual numbers.

you put the races in with no shims and measure the total play, in my case 0.0655 on the main and 0.073 on the countershaft. Then you add 2 or 3 thou to those numbers, take the races back out and place shims under them, then put it back together.
The process can be seen in the service manual here:

ZF5

Official ZF5 workshop & troubleshooting manuals, parts catalogs, specifications, gear ratios, etc. In addition, how to install a ZF5 transmission behind a 351M or 400.

www.garysgaragemahal.com

or in the following youtube video:

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[franklin2]

Ok, got it.

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

I read through your thread, very handy. One question though, on post #54, you said:
"checked clearance again and it was about 0.001". Minimum is 0.00079""
Do you mean to say the shaft had 0.001" of play back and forth? or preload?
Becasue the spec is 0.00079-0.00434 of *preload*, not play. The shafts need to be tight in the case becasue the steel shafts and aluminum case heat up and expand differently. If I put my shims back in as I found them(not that I would put beer can shims back in my big expensive transmission), I would have about 0.0005-0.001" preload on the main, and pretty close to 0 preload on the countershaft, and I was hoping to get both up to around 0.003", to get them on the tighter side.

The above numbers were measuring "play" by barring the shaft up. This is the only measurement that can be taken, as far as I understand.

If I understand it correctly, and I think I do, then you're measuring the absolutely tiny gap between the tapered bearings in the back of the case to the front of the case. The smaller the gap, the more pre-load the bearings will have on them. --Edit for future readers, this is incorrect.

 

[franklin2]

The above numbers were measuring "play" by barring the shaft up. This is the only measurement that can be taken, as far as I understand.

If I understand it correctly, and I think I do, then you're measuring the absolutely tiny gap between the tapered bearings in the back of the case to the front of the case. The smaller the gap, the more pre-load the bearings will have on them.

Interpreting our great English language, I would think any sort of gap, however small would be zero pre-load. Another word for "preload" would be "crowding" or having to force the shaft in place. He said that is what he does, he puts too many shims in place and forces the transmission together. That is pre-load.

 

[XOLATEM]

Either way, it doesnt inspire confidence in the quality of work the guy did.

I pulled apart a rear axle on a pre-82 Camaro one time that had an Olds engine in it and the ring gear had been shimmed towards the pinion with graph paper....I fixed that and then and went and put a shift-kitted GM THM 200...(yes, a 200 trans..) in it and it ran pretty good.

Back to the ZF...


One method of figuring the 'play' would be to lay some solder in the bearing cup cavities and then bolt up the case halves with the complete geartrain and countershaft in place...use all of the case bolts and lube them and do not run them in too hard with an air or electric gun...you want to preserve the threads.

Then...take it back apart and measure the thickness of the solder....then add the required shim number to your measurements and then grab up the shims that are the right thickness and then it is 'off to the races'....

HTH

Oopss...don't forget to put the bearing cups in on top of the solder....

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

Interpreting our great English language, I would think any sort of gap, however small would be zero pre-load. Another word for "preload" would be "crowding" or having to force the shaft in place. He said that is what he does, he puts too many shims in place and forces the transmission together. That is pre-load.

Holy cow I just went back to the manual since I apparently didn't get that part, and you're correct. There's no way to measure pre-load with the shims installed, it has to be with them out and you do the math for pre-load. Great. Well the transmission works OK as-is, but the synchro cones are too worn and still chatter. I guess I get to tackle all this again someday, assuming there are real shims on this planet.